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When in BG2 do we discover the Imoen is CHARNAME's Sister?


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#1 Bill Bisco

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 08:56 AM

When in BG2 do we discover the Imoen is CHARNAME's Sister?

 

Is it Spellhold?

 

Thanks,

 

Bill



#2 Roxanne

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 01:20 PM

When in BG2 do we discover the Imoen is CHARNAME's Sister?
 
Is it Spellhold?
 
Thanks,
 
Bill
When you say sister, do you mean she is a bhaalspawn herself? (There is a lot of discussion about this issue and my personal opinion is that Bhaal's children should not be referred to as sisters or brothers, but that may be another issue)I never understood the Imoen Romance as incest.
When Irenicus steals the PCs soul in Spellhold he boasts that he has done the same to give Imoen's bhaalspawn soul to Bodhi (his sister - and again there is some doubt of those two are really brother and sister). Irenicus' statement is supposed to come as a surprise for the PC, but ever since I first played the game I had the impression that we all knew about that fact before.
Now with having played the game far too often and with loads of mods installed, it is hard to say when you really get the first hints about Imoen's heritage. For me it has always been clear already by the end of BG1 but that may be over-interpretation of her background story or something that is in one or more mods but not the original game.

Edited by Roxanne, 11 July 2015 - 01:24 PM.

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#3 Almateria

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 02:15 PM

I never understood the Imoen Romance as incest.

It's called the Westermarck effect! Generally, normal people don't perceive the people in their immediate families (or the group they've been familiar with) as sexually attractive, and instances of people who do (incest, anime fan fiction) are labeled as wrong, developmentally speaking. Imogen and Charname grew up together, them having sexual relationships is pretty much the same as popping a boner for your childhood friend.

 

Also, they have the same father. Y'know?



#4 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:01 PM

It's called the Westermarck effect! Generally, normal people don't perceive the people in their immediate families (or the group they've been familiar with) as sexually attractive, and instances of people who do (incest, anime fan fiction) are labeled as wrong, developmentally speaking. Imogen and Charname grew up together, them having sexual relationships is pretty much the same as popping a boner for your childhood friend.

 

Also, they have the same father. Y'know?

 

Maybe, but lots of people end up marrying their lifelong friends from childhood with zero comment.  I also doubt that the living environment at Candlekeep was anything like a "family".  Gorion may have been the one responsible for them, but this doesn't mean they shared the same living quarters, or ate dinner together every night.

 

Technically, they don't have the same father.  Bhaal inhabited different bodies, so there's no DNA conflict.  Whatever that works out to for a "god", though, may only qualify as being soul kin.



#5 The Imp

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 03:18 PM

Also it might be worth mentioning that in biology, the heterosexual meiotic reproduction has evolved to avoid the incest for the survival of the species, as avoiding genetic pairing of the same mutation from both parents can be beneficial. So it's not just a moral or psychological factor, but against the very nature of your being.
This can be actually felt in your attraction factors. Such as the smell of your partner(this is just skimming the surface of the subject.. hehe) ... "opposites attract" and so forth.
it is hard to say when you really get the first hints about Imoen's heritage.  
Well, the BG2:SoA intro says in the next 20 seconds "...Imoen.... Her background was as mysterious as your own..." So there's a strong hint.
Technically, they don't have the same father. Bhaal inhabited different bodies, so there's no DNA conflict. Whatever that works out to for a "god", though, may only qualify as being soul kin.
If you look that intro and know the story about the bhallspawns mother, that Gorion was the mothers lover or what not and so forth, there's a time line that tells that Bhall was likely to be the same being during your and Imoens inception. As later then Gorion went to save the mother from the temple, but ended up getting just the children out.

Edited by The Imp, 11 July 2015 - 03:35 PM.

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#6 Roxanne

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:29 PM

Also it might be worth mentioning that in biology, the heterosexual meiotic reproduction has evolved to avoid the incest for the survival of the species, as avoiding genetic pairing of the same mutation from both parents can be beneficial. So it's not just a moral or psychological factor, but against the very nature of your being.
This can be actually felt in your attraction factors. Such as the smell of your partner(this is just skimming the surface of the subject.. hehe) ... "opposites attract" and so forth.

it is hard to say when you really get the first hints about Imoen's heritage.  
Well, the BG2:SoA intro says in the next 20 seconds "...Imoen.... Her background was as mysterious as your own..." So there's a strong hint.
Technically, they don't have the same father. Bhaal inhabited different bodies, so there's no DNA conflict. Whatever that works out to for a "god", though, may only qualify as being soul kin.
If you look that intro and know the story about the bhallspawns mother, that Gorion was the mothers lover or what not and so forth, there's a time line that tells that Bhall was likely to be the same being during your and Imoens inception. As later then Gorion went to save the mother from the temple, but ended up getting just the children out.

 

I think above arguments strengthen my point that you get the idea of Imoen being another bhaalspawn almost in parallel to the discovery of your own heritage. The cutscene and also Irenicus interest in Imoen (she tells you a bit about the experiments he did to her) are another indication. The scene in Spellhold is when it is spoken out clearly, but like I said earlier, when you followed the whole Bhaal story closely it does not come as a big surprise, rather a confirmation. (it would even be bad storytelling if this twists comes completely unprepared).


Edited by Roxanne, 11 July 2015 - 11:30 PM.

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#7 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 11 July 2015 - 11:56 PM

Also it might bIf you look that intro and know the story about the bhallspawns mother, that Gorion was the mothers lover or what not and so forth, there's a time line that tells that Bhall was likely to be the same being during your and Imoens inception. As later then Gorion went to save the mother from the temple, but ended up getting just the children out.

That was retconned in by ToB.  Until that point, Gorion was just a caretaker.  Bioware got sloppy/lazy for ToB.  It's really one of the worst retcons ever in gaming lore (although Bethesda tries hard with every ES iteration), and one of the primary reasons I'm ignoring the entireity of ToB for my mod.  Might as well get some fat virgins in here to slaver over Twilight fanfic [edit:  I use this as the cliche of Mary Sues].


Edited by Fiann of the Silver Hand, 12 July 2015 - 04:05 PM.


#8 Roxanne

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 12:14 AM

Also it might bIf you look that intro and know the story about the bhallspawns mother, that Gorion was the mothers lover or what not and so forth, there's a time line that tells that Bhall was likely to be the same being during your and Imoens inception. As later then Gorion went to save the mother from the temple, but ended up getting just the children out.

That was retconned in by ToB.  Until that point, Gorion was just a caretaker.  Bioware got sloppy/lazy for ToB.  It's really one of the worst retcons ever in gaming lore (although Bethesda tries hard with every ES iteration), and one of the primary reasons I'm ignoring the entireity of ToB for my mod.  Might as well get some fat virgins in here to slaver over Twilight fanfic.

This is indeed one of the shortcomings in the trilogy and a hastily provided break in the continuity of the story. Whole forum threads have already elaborated on this issue,

For my own mod I have therefore taken another approach, i.e. make a story out of that mess >> bits and pieces do not fit together, different information is fed to the PC at different times by different sources >> there is some intend behind this.

You are made to believe something in order to have you act and react in a certain fashion. Forces in the background spread lies or half-truth and try to manipulate the PC by these bits of lore given to him/her. Who are those forces and what is their intention? - stuff for a mod while leaving all the original pieces in place, just give them some interpretation that aligns with the overall story. (N:B. This is a subquest of SandrahNPC called *Gorion's Dagger*)


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#9 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 12:45 AM

Well, I guess that's indicative of a divide in philosophies.  I think when the story is good enough, you don't have to have every last detail explicitly stated.  Leaving some room for mystery and reader interpretation is what takes a linear journey over to art.  It seems like every other mod out there wants to add faux legitimacy by tying some minor character into the background noise of an actual Character.  There's certainly something fun about using all the lost assets (a la Almateria).  On the other hand, proclaiming your mod's NPC as some kind of "hey, I can wrap up all those questions you had" mouthpiece seems truly recklessly and unashamedly amateurish.  There's already enough mod NPCs, on top of the canon ones, who fairly inexplicably lay their lives into the hands of a complete stranger, often one who has the leadership of a neighborhood street mechanic but for a ring he found in a circus tent.



#10 Roxanne

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 01:13 AM

Well, I guess that's indicative of a divide in philosophies.  I think when the story is good enough, you don't have to have every last detail explicitly stated.  Leaving some room for mystery and reader interpretation is what takes a linear journey over to art.  It seems like every other mod out there wants to add faux legitimacy by tying some minor character into the background noise of an actual Character.  There's certainly something fun about using all the lost assets (a la Almateria).  On the other hand, proclaiming your mod's NPC as some kind of "hey, I can wrap up all those questions you had" mouthpiece seems truly recklessly and unashamedly amateurish.  There's already enough mod NPCs, on top of the canon ones, who fairly inexplicably lay their lives into the hands of a complete stranger, often one who has the leadership of a neighborhood street mechanic but for a ring he found in a circus tent.

 

Well, I guess that's indicative of a divide in philosophies.  I think when the story is good enough, you don't have to have every last detail explicitly stated.  Leaving some room for mystery and reader interpretation is what takes a linear journey over to art.  It seems like every other mod out there wants to add faux legitimacy by tying some minor character into the background noise of an actual Character.  There's certainly something fun about using all the lost assets (a la Almateria).  On the other hand, proclaiming your mod's NPC as some kind of "hey, I can wrap up all those questions you had" mouthpiece seems truly recklessly and unashamedly amateurish.  There's already enough mod NPCs, on top of the canon ones, who fairly inexplicably lay their lives into the hands of a complete stranger, often one who has the leadership of a neighborhood street mechanic but for a ring he found in a circus tent.

If it were done this way, I would agree. Tying all the loose and together and try to imply that this is to be taken as the canonic interpretation would spoil the game. Playing with the possibilities and opening new ways of looking at the story is supposed to trigger your imagination. You may end uo , saying yes, it could have been that way - or, no, it makes no sense. I fully agree, it is only well done if it is (I quote you) "Leaving some room for mystery and reader interpretation is what takes a linear journey over to art."). If I achieve that, it would add more depth to the story - if it appears to be forced onto the player, it has failed.


Edited by Roxanne, 12 July 2015 - 01:14 AM.

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#11 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 12 July 2015 - 04:12 PM

Yes, those are definitely the ones I enjoy more.  By the way, when I was saying "you", I meant "one, in general", not you = Roxanne.  :)

 

I guess after 15+ years, even modding protocol develops its own "canon", and original concepts become heretical, if discovered at all.  There's certainly a formula to the expectations now, and while genuinely well-crafted work always has value, it's harder to keep paying attention when nothing stands out.


Edited by Fiann of the Silver Hand, 12 July 2015 - 04:14 PM.


#12 EricP

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Posted 14 July 2015 - 01:23 PM

Easy enough to imagine that the protagonist and Imoen each had a different biological paternal parent, and that it wasn't Gorion in either case. I take it this issue wasn't detailed sufficiently well in the novelization?

 

Good thread, and now I support the notion that an Imoen romance does not constitute incest...which opens up new rp options I'd previously slammed shut, due to my own prudish ways *LOL*


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