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About different spell packs and their possible overlap

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#1 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:03 AM

Whew, spend a lot of time looking all those nifty spell packs, IR, SP v6, IWDification spells, Wild mage additions to just name a few. Although I'm very impressed by IR and SP scope of work and innovative changes I decided with the heavy heart to drop them from my current installation ( at least this time, but I will try them for sure some other time ) because the game is already swarming with spells added by megamods and I don't want to really learn a whole new spell systems and adjust battle tactics according to them, in another words, I want to play familiar game. Which bring us to possible overlap between IWDification spells and spells from DSotSC and TDD mods which bring many spells with the same name ( not sure if they have exactly the same effects though ). It will probably leave my spellcasters with two spells with the same names and similar effects. Has anyone run on some issues with this? 



#2 Roxanne

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:10 AM

Whew, spend a lot of time looking all those nifty spell packs, IR, SP v6, IWDification spells, Wild mage additions to just name a few. Although I'm very impressed by IR and SP scope of work and innovative changes I decided with the heavy heart to drop them from my current installation ( at least this time, but I will try them for sure some other time ) because the game is already swarming with spells added by megamods and I don't want to really learn a whole new spell systems and adjust battle tactics according to them, in another words, I want to play familiar game. Which bring us to possible overlap between IWDification spells and spells from DSotSC and TDD mods which bring many spells with the same name ( not sure if they have exactly the same effects though ). It will probably leave my spellcasters with two spells with the same names and similar effects. Has anyone run on some issues with this? 

Yes.


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#3 Oracle

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:14 AM

Yes this can happen espically with TDD and IWD, Spver6 does ask which spells you want indivdually which makes it possible to avoid any overlap if you know the spells from the other packs. The main trouble with overlapping spells is that it fills up the higher level priest spells which seems to be limt to the number of spells. The other problem is that sorccers tend not be able to learn some of these spells when they level as far i know the mods you mentioned are ok. I would recomend looking into Tobex or RR both which extend the number of learnt spells that can be displayed

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#4 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:33 AM

Whew, spend a lot of time looking all those nifty spell packs, IR, SP v6, IWDification spells, Wild mage additions to just name a few. Although I'm very impressed by IR and SP scope of work and innovative changes I decided with the heavy heart to drop them from my current installation ( at least this time, but I will try them for sure some other time ) because the game is already swarming with spells added by megamods and I don't want to really learn a whole new spell systems and adjust battle tactics according to them, in another words, I want to play familiar game. Which bring us to possible overlap between IWDification spells and spells from DSotSC and TDD mods which bring many spells with the same name ( not sure if they have exactly the same effects though ). It will probably leave my spellcasters with two spells with the same names and similar effects. Has anyone run on some issues with this? 

Yes.

 

Yes this can happen espically with TDD and IWD, Spver6 does ask which spells you want indivdually which makes it possible to avoid any overlap if you know the spells from the other packs. The main trouble with overlapping spells is that it fills up the higher level priest spells which seems to be limt to the number of spells. The other problem is that sorccers tend not be able to learn some of these spells when they level as far i know the mods you mentioned are ok. I would recomend looking into Tobex or RR both which extend the number of learnt spells that can be displayed

 

I'm familiar with Tobex functions ( played with it couple of times ), I'm more concerned with possible contentwise compatibility between megamods and IWD spell packs., but I guess I got my answer.  :) In any case, maybe it wouldn't be bad idea to put some conflict warnings as my current BWS have none... 



#5 agb1

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 04:56 AM

Which mods are adding duplicates of IWD spells?

BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)

 

BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)

Latest version:    https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip


#6 Roxanne

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:00 AM

Whew, spend a lot of time looking all those nifty spell packs, IR, SP v6, IWDification spells, Wild mage additions to just name a few. Although I'm very impressed by IR and SP scope of work and innovative changes I decided with the heavy heart to drop them from my current installation ( at least this time, but I will try them for sure some other time ) because the game is already swarming with spells added by megamods and I don't want to really learn a whole new spell systems and adjust battle tactics according to them, in another words, I want to play familiar game. Which bring us to possible overlap between IWDification spells and spells from DSotSC and TDD mods which bring many spells with the same name ( not sure if they have exactly the same effects though ). It will probably leave my spellcasters with two spells with the same names and similar effects. Has anyone run on some issues with this? 

Yes.

 

Yes this can happen espically with TDD and IWD, Spver6 does ask which spells you want indivdually which makes it possible to avoid any overlap if you know the spells from the other packs. The main trouble with overlapping spells is that it fills up the higher level priest spells which seems to be limt to the number of spells. The other problem is that sorccers tend not be able to learn some of these spells when they level as far i know the mods you mentioned are ok. I would recomend looking into Tobex or RR both which extend the number of learnt spells that can be displayed

 

I'm familiar with Tobex functions ( played with it couple of times ), I'm more concerned with possible contentwise compatibility between megamods and IWD spell packs., but I guess I got my answer.  :) In any case, maybe it wouldn't be bad idea to put some conflict warnings as my current BWS have none... 

 

The issue is that it is almost impossible to analyse, identify and warn about the countless variations of mods and mod components in this area and the resulting outcome. As none of those combinations (as far as my experience goes) leads to anything gamebreaking or CtDs, you can argue that as a user you get what you asked for.

You may consider the outcome of combining spell or Ai mods in any way you want as a feature - it is a game randomizer that gives you a different gameplay every time around. Surprise, surprise.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#7 Creepin

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:14 AM

I remember I saw a thread about an year ago that tried to systematise custom spells much like IA did for animations. I think this idea needs to be dusted off and continued: an exhaustive list of custom spells should be made and all mods that originally introduced some of these should be forcibly re-wired to conform to this list. This is the only way to make sure your caster won't get 3 versions of the same spell.

 

P.S. Would be nice to do the same with potions too: I'm kind of tired of having 3 different stacks of potions of extra healing that are not inter-stackable because they are different items.


Edited by Creepin, 27 January 2016 - 05:15 AM.

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#8 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:37 AM

I remember I saw a thread about an year ago that tried to systematise custom spells much like IA did for animations. I think this idea needs to be dusted off and continued: an exhaustive list of custom spells should be made and all mods that originally introduced some of these should be forcibly re-wired to conform to this list. This is the only way to make sure your caster won't get 3 versions of the same spell.

 

P.S. Would be nice to do the same with potions too: I'm kind of tired of having 3 different stacks of potions of extra healing that are not inter-stackable because they are different items.

Seconded. 

 

Which mods are adding duplicates of IWD spells?

  IWDification arcane and divine packs which overlaps with some ( but not all ) spells  from TDD and DSotSC ( beast claw, cat grace and so on ), SP v 6 although it is perfectly customized to allow you installation spell by spell. Heck, maybe even some megamods introduce same spell ( very likely in the case of TDD and DSotSC )...

Edit: like Roxanne wrote it is almost impossible to detect in case of big megamods, I will have to play to find out...


Edited by Greenhorn, 27 January 2016 - 05:48 AM.


#9 The Imp

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 06:50 AM

The only reason why the Spell Revision mod doesn't really have this kind of problem with the large mods is that it is evil and just removes the extra spells from the player.

There's a way to make the extra spells all fit into a single and good spell system, and I'll say Nope to this:

In any case, maybe it wouldn't be bad idea to put some conflict warnings as my current BWS have none... 

The issue is that it is almost impossible to analyse, identify and warn about the countless variations of mods and mod components ..
 


Impossible is nothing ... we'll make magic happen.

The way to do this is to make the mega mods install their additional spells via the ADD_SPELL function, in separate components. This takes care of the most problems, including the SR's spell removal as the mage spells are installed after the Spell Rev's spell overwriting. Duplicate spells don't happen when you use the correct spell description in the scripting part of the ADD_SPELL function, and so forth.
The BWS can add a warning that's too obvious like: "If a mod adds a spell, it could be incompatible with any other mod that adds a spell." But what's really the point on that ?

Edited by The Imp, 27 January 2016 - 06:52 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#10 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 07:14 AM

The only reason why the Spell Revision mod doesn't really have this kind of problem with the large mods is that it is evil and just removes the extra spells from the player.

There's a way to make the extra spells all fit into a single and good spell system, and I'll say Nope to this:


In any case, maybe it wouldn't be bad idea to put some conflict warnings as my current BWS have none... 

The issue is that it is almost impossible to analyse, identify and warn about the countless variations of mods and mod components ..
 

 

Impossible is nothing ... we'll make magic happen.

The way to do this is to make the mega mods install their additional spells via the ADD_SPELL function, in separate components. This takes care of the most problems, including the SR's spell removal as the mage spells are installed after the Spell Rev's spell overwriting. Duplicate spells don't happen when you use the correct spell description in the scripting part of the ADD_SPELL function, and so forth.

I'm all for that if it is possible and feasible in near future. It doesn't necessary had to involve SR?

 

The BWS can add a warning that's too obvious like: "If a mod adds a spell, it could be incompatible with any other mod that adds a spell." But what's really the point on that ? 

Well, it maybe could be useful if you don't want to end up with two moonblade spells unless you could dual wield them. Like my old pal Lilarcor would say: "That would be soo COOL!"  :P


Edited by Greenhorn, 27 January 2016 - 07:15 AM.


#11 agb1

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 07:37 AM

K4thos has a new modular version of DSotSC under development.  Testing is focused on EET.

 

K4thos has a new version of The Grey Clan Episode I under development.  Testing is focused on EET.

 

shadowlich has a new modular version of TDD under development.  Testing is focused on EE and EET.

 

No one is working on an update for Shadows over Soubar as far as I know.

 

No one is working on an update for Check the Bodies as far as I know.  Hoppy recently replied to my PM saying he thinks it would be OK for us to update the mods he worked on; I haven't heard back from CBisson or King Diamond.

 

Dark Horizons adds a lot of spells and items too.  CoM_Solaufein updated Dark Horizons for BGEE in 2013 but it is still a single component.


BiG World Fixpack (community collection of mod fixes and compatibility patches, with user-friendly cross-platform script)

 

BiG World Setup (tool to automate best-practice installation of Infinity Engine mods on Windows, with conflict analysis)

Latest version:    https://bitbucket.or.../get/master.zip


#12 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 07:49 AM

No one is working on an update for Shadows over Soubar as far as I know.

 

http://www.shsforums...-49#entry586144



#13 subtledoctor

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 01:41 PM

ADD_SPELL is nice, but the best way to deal with this is for these "mega" mods not to introduce new spells! Or at least be modular and make it a separate component.

Want to make a content mod? Make content!
Want to make a spell pack mod? Make a spell pack!
Want to make a kit pack mod? Make a kit pack!
Want to make a rule tweak mod? Make a tweak mod!
Want to combine several of those things? Great - make several of those things and then bundle them together. But there's no reason they should be jumbled together in a single messy component.

Btw at least for priests, if you use the sphere system in my upcoming "Faiths & Powers" mod, it will eliminate duplicate spells in-game. Bonus!

#14 Greenhorn

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 02:12 PM

ADD_SPELL is nice, but the best way to deal with this is for these "mega" mods not to introduce new spells! Or at least be modular and make it a separate component.

Want to make a content mod? Make content!
Want to make a spell pack mod? Make a spell pack!
Want to make a kit pack mod? Make a kit pack!
Want to make a rule tweak mod? Make a tweak mod!
Want to combine several of those things? Great - make several of those things and then bundle them together. But there's no reason they should be jumbled together in a single messy component.

Btw at least for priests, if you use the sphere system in my upcoming "Faiths & Powers" mod, it will eliminate duplicate spells in-game. Bonus!

Couldn't agree more, I'm all for customized user choice, but we are talking here about legacy from Dark ages of modding,   :lol: and now that Renaissance finally arrived it is ideal time to sort it once and for all. 



#15 The Imp

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 03:19 PM

Want to make a spell pack mod? Make a spell pack!
Want to make a kit pack mod? Make a kit pack!
--
Want to combine several of those things? Great - make several of those things and then bundle them together. But there's no reason they should be jumbled together in a single messy component.

Btw at least for priests, if you use the sphere system in my upcoming "Faiths & Powers" mod, it will eliminate duplicate spells in-game. Bonus!
How can you say all that with a strait face ? See the fact is, the F&P is a spell mod as well as a kit pack mod.
Or are you going to make it so there's no kit rules on who gets to cast what spell ? Aka without an integrated sphere system. :P

Now, of course there is an excuse for that, but ...
And I do agree that the megamods should not have their spells so entangled into the system so fully, but stripping them out is going to be a work for a lots of hours.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#16 subtledoctor

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Posted 27 January 2016 - 05:06 PM

All of FnP's kits are optional and independent of the sphere system. And the sphere system is optional and independent of any added kits.

(The sphere system introduces a few new spells... it doesn't use ADD_SPELL, but that's on purpose and with good reason.)

Edited by subtledoctor, 08 February 2016 - 08:05 AM.






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