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Torgal was near impossible to kill.


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#1 tomkaz

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 03:20 PM

Hi All:

 

Torgal is dead, but it took a cheat to get him killed.  A very nasty fight, but some how I managed to kill every other monster but Torgal.  I had all six party members attacking Torgal, but he would not die.  Knocked him down at least five times but he never had any damage.  Torgal was being hit with an axe that did fire damage, an axe that did acid damage, arrows of fire, Melf's Acid Arrows and other weapons.  He could be knock down but got right back up.  I checked when he was down and checked when he got up and it said he was not injured.  Tried one <CTRL>-Y and he did not die.  Neither did he take damage and again the check showed he was not injured.  I used two <CTRL>-Ys in succession and followed that with a barrage of fire.  The <CTRL>-Ys knock him down, but not dead.  The fire finished him off.  

 

NI was not helpful as Torgal had some items but no description was available.

 

If anyone found a better way to kill Torgal, I would be interested in hearing how it was done.

 

Tom



#2 The Imp

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 03:36 PM

Removing the items is the good start, or just assigning a proper troll script to him... it probably has rings and other things that have a min1hp property... you don't need to have an item description in NI, as you can open the effects the items have and read what they do.
This is the undying Torgal bug people have had for ages. It comes from stacking a troll with too many script and not the primary it needs to have, aka one that kills it if it's on low hps and gets damaged by anything.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#3 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 08 March 2016 - 08:44 PM

I gave trolls a ring that confers 30% resistance to all damage except fire and acid.  This let their regeneration still be a boon for them, without that terrible scripting implementation that swaps the troll you're fighting (normal stats) with the "dead" one that can only be killed by 1 point of fire or acid damage.  Bioware had few design choices as bad as that one in BG.



#4 Fouinto

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 04:10 AM

As The Imp said, this bugs is as old as BG2 (maybe older :) ).

However, it makes years that I have not encountered it... even in very big BigWorld :)



#5 tomkaz

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:25 AM

Hi Fiann:

 

Is that 30% of hits do no damage?  Or is it that each hit does 30% damage?

 

In the past all trolls would take damage until they were unconscious.   That left 1 to 10 (maybe 9) HP.  When they were down to 1, then it required acid or fire to kill them permanently.

 

I was doing a lot of damage,  The weapon stats were 1D8+5, 1D8+3+Acid, 2D12+5+Fire, 1D8+3+Miscast Magic, 1D6+4, 1D4, 1D?+5, and 1D6+Fire.  After 5+ minutes of (real time not game time and with all the other monsters dead) Torgal still was uninjured.  <CTRL>-Y does 1100+ HP of damage.  It did not kill nor makeTorgal unconscious as he still was uninjured.  So I think you may want to check you modification of Torgal.  Perhaps there is an error in your programming or another modder reprogrammed Torgal after your modification.

 

When Torgal was uninjured, it took two <CTRL>-Ys plus fire in rapid succession to kill him.  I do not know the details of what killed Torgal.

 

Tom 



#6 The Imp

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 08:41 AM

Hi Fiann:... Or is it that each hit does 30% damage?
It's with 30% reduction, so each hit does 70% damage, unless the troll has other added reductions... it's about 7 damage out of every 10 hit... well unless the reduced amounts doesn't amount to any real damage reduction with for example 1 or 2 damage hits.

Edited by The Imp, 09 March 2016 - 08:43 AM.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#7 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 09 March 2016 - 03:58 PM

What Jarno said.  It gives them enough staying power for their regeneration to have an impact, so you either have to use fire/acid attacks, or gang up on them.  Somewhat of the same intent, but a much more reliable implementation.



#8 tomkaz

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 06:49 AM

Hi Fiann:

 

I am confused.  From NI, I think Torgal most likely has 140 HP.  On average at 70% (assuming all attacks hit) I do 45 HP of normal damage with 4 HP of acid + fire damage and a 10% chance of doing an additional 4 HP of fire damage.  I could not determine how fast Torgal regenerates HP.  But if Torgal is immune to all damage except acid and fire, there is no chance to kill him.  That ruins the game.

 

The game uses Torgal2.cre or Torgal3.cre.  Torgal.cre is the original Torgal in Shadows of Amn.  Torgal2 and Torgal3 have Protection from spell (206), Immunity to weapons (120), and Enchantment_Immunity - 401.  Torgal3 also has Magic damage resistance bonus (31) and Poison resistance bonus (173).  I do not know the translations of these numbers.  Depending on what (120) designates, Torgal could be impossible to kill.  Which would make the game impossible to play.

 

So since you seem to know more than I can find out, please tell us how to kill Torgal.

 

Tom


Edited by tomkaz, 10 March 2016 - 06:52 AM.


#9 Roxanne

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 08:01 AM

Hi Fiann:

 

I am confused.  From NI, I think Torgal most likely has 140 HP.  On average at 70% (assuming all attacks hit) I do 45 HP of normal damage with 4 HP of acid + fire damage and a 10% chance of doing an additional 4 HP of fire damage.  I could not determine how fast Torgal regenerates HP.  But if Torgal is immune to all damage except acid and fire, there is no chance to kill him.  That ruins the game.

 

The game uses Torgal2.cre or Torgal3.cre.  Torgal.cre is the original Torgal in Shadows of Amn.  Torgal2 and Torgal3 have Protection from spell (206), Immunity to weapons (120), and Enchantment_Immunity - 401.  Torgal3 also has Magic damage resistance bonus (31) and Poison resistance bonus (173).  I do not know the translations of these numbers.  Depending on what (120) designates, Torgal could be impossible to kill.  Which would make the game impossible to play.

 

So since you seem to know more than I can find out, please tell us how to kill Torgal.

 

Tom

Put these Torgals into your override folder and try again (this only works when you start a from a save/autosave before you enter the cellar where TorGal is.)

Attached File  TORGAL.CRE   6.01K   194 downloads

Attached File  TORGAL2.CRE   10.13K   188 downloads

Attached File  TORGAL3.CRE   10.16K   206 downloads

 

PS If this does not work, the only way may be to analyse the scripts your Torgals have attached.

 

PPS I re-constructed the 3-headed flail of ages before I met him. Viconia killed him with it.


Edited by Roxanne, 10 March 2016 - 08:08 AM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#10 tomkaz

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 09:15 AM

Hi Roxanne:

 

Thanks for the comments.  Those three Torgals are already in the game.  The last mod to "improve" Torgal was Stratagems.  I found that out with change-log.

 

I do not need to kill Torgal again.  He is dead and I have moved on with the game.

 

I forgot about the Flail of Ages.  None of my characters have a proficiency with flails so I generally do not have anyone use it until Aerie joins.

 

I was just upset with the "improvements" that made it impossible for a powerful group to kill Torgal.  I wanted to let others know it was going to be very difficult to kill him.

 

Tom



#11 Roxanne

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 09:23 AM

Hi Roxanne:

 

Thanks for the comments.  Those three Torgals are already in the game.  The last mod to "improve" Torgal was Stratagems.  I found that out with change-log.

 

I do not need to kill Torgal again.  He is dead and I have moved on with the game.

 

I forgot about the Flail of Ages.  None of my characters have a proficiency with flails so I generally do not have anyone use it until Aerie joins.

 

I was just upset with the "improvements" that made it impossible for a powerful group to kill Torgal.  I wanted to let others know it was going to be very difficult to kill him.

 

Tom

Hm, those three Torgals are not in your game, yours are different ones with the same names...

And the one to be upset with is yourself...you chose this specific set of *improvements* for your game, right?

And the *letting others know* is only valid if you can identify which mod or mod constellation exactly created your problem.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#12 tomkaz

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 12:25 PM

Hi Roxanne:

 

You are correct.  I did choose the "improvements".  But I selected mods and components based on the game I made last November.  There were lots of changes in several mods that I did not expect.  My problem is that I do not go through the ReadMe files to see what has been changed.  That is my fault.  I assume things that worked the last time will work this time.

 

There were some changes that fixed bugs.  I appreciate that.  It is when changes make new problems that I get upset.  I have played this mega mod game so many times I have it memorized.  Due to crashes in BG2, I keep restarting the game.  Usually, I add any quest mods that are new since the previous game.  This time I use BWS instead of BWP.  BWS fixed some problems with better choices than I made in the past with BWP.  But it also selected some which I usually avoided because I did not like the way they changed the game.

 

This game is a learning experience again.  I do not expect to be able to finish it, but I am learning how to find the source of some problems and learning how to edit TP2 files to eliminate changes I do not like.  With the number of mods I have, it is a major effort.

 

As to the files you posted, I assumed that if the names were the same, the files were the same.  Well assuming always causes problems.  I will look ad see what was changed in you files.

 

I have the original games without any mods added on my other computer.  So for problems I have like Torgal, I also see what the original file looked like.  My problem is that I need to learn how to make mods in order to understand what NI tells me.  I may not agree with what the mods do, but I really appreciate the efforts that went into creating mods.

 

Tom



#13 Roxanne

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 12:40 PM

Hi Roxanne:

 

You are correct.  I did choose the "improvements".  But I selected mods and components based on the game I made last November.  There were lots of changes in several mods that I did not expect.  My problem is that I do not go through the ReadMe files to see what has been changed.  That is my fault.  I assume things that worked the last time will work this time.

 

There were some changes that fixed bugs.  I appreciate that.  It is when changes make new problems that I get upset.  I have played this mega mod game so many times I have it memorized.  Due to crashes in BG2, I keep restarting the game.  Usually, I add any quest mods that are new since the previous game.  This time I use BWS instead of BWP.  BWS fixed some problems with better choices than I made in the past with BWP.  But it also selected some which I usually avoided because I did not like the way they changed the game.

 

This game is a learning experience again.  I do not expect to be able to finish it, but I am learning how to find the source of some problems and learning how to edit TP2 files to eliminate changes I do not like.  With the number of mods I have, it is a major effort.

 

As to the files you posted, I assumed that if the names were the same, the files were the same.  Well assuming always causes problems.  I will look ad see what was changed in you files.

 

I have the original games without any mods added on my other computer.  So for problems I have like Torgal, I also see what the original file looked like.  My problem is that I need to learn how to make mods in order to understand what NI tells me.  I may not agree with what the mods do, but I really appreciate the efforts that went into creating mods.

 

Tom

For problems like yours it is always good to have tools like NI and also changelog. If you run changelog for a file (e.g. Torgal.cre) it will tell you which mods have changed it and if it were more than one it also tells you the order of those changes. In many cases you can find the version of the file before a mod made the changes in the backup folder of that mod (the backup folder may have subfolders named after the mod component). If you copy the file from that backup into your game's override folder, you can often revert the *improvement* by a mod that gives you headaches.

And you are correct to state that a lot of tweaks have been added to the game in the recent months.

But please do not blame BWS or BWP, as such are only tools to make the installation the mod selection you have chosen easier for you and also ensure you always get the newest edition of those mods in your game.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#14 Fiann of the Silver Hand

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:27 PM

I don't make them immune to anything, just resistant to all damage types except fire and acid.  I'll explain vanilla's method better when I'm off work.



#15 tomkaz

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:27 PM

Hi Roxanne:

 

I still appreciate your comments, even if I do not agree with all of them.

 

But please do not blame BWS or BWP, as such are only tools to make the installation the mod selection you have chosen easier for you and also ensure you always get the newest edition of those mods in your game.

 

I do not ever blame BWP or BWS.

 

With BWP, I was the one who edited which components got installed.  So when there was a conflict, it was me that created it. BWP fixed known bugs which was extremely helpful and only loaded the first of conflicting components.  This method meant that some components I would have liked could not be installed, but it kept the game from many crashes.

 

With BWS, I still choose the components, but BWS resolves them with the best known fixes.  I must select the fixes, BWS just lets me know what they are.  The problem is I sometimes do not like either choice to fix the conflict.  Each gives something I do not want so I think I select the better of the two choices.  I am trying to learn how to get around this situation.  Right now all I can do is eliminate some components I like.

 

Now back to the Torgal files.  I can not determine which one is used in the game.  Windows 7 search is not the best.  I searched for Torgal2 and Torgal3, but could not find any text that called either one.  I did find all the files in the mods.  I used ShadowKeeper to compare files as it gives information in plain English.  I found out that one major difference is in "Resistances". Torgal2 has most at 100%.  Acid, fire, and magic fire are at 0%.  Torgal3 has most at 30%.  If Torgal2 has a 100% resistance to missile, how can fire arrows hit him and do fire damage to him?  In fact Torgal2 is immune to all damage so only acid and fire can affect him.  It would take fire ball, flame arrow and like spells to damage and kill him.  But with your party around, I do not think you want to cast many fire ball spells.  The files you provided remove RNDTRE04 and RNDTRE05 from the quick slots and added RNDTRE08 to the inventory slot.  I cannot find any information about any of these three items.  I am curious as to what they are and what they do.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 


#16 Roxanne

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:49 PM

Hi Roxanne:

 

I still appreciate your comments, even if I do not agree with all of them.

 

But please do not blame BWS or BWP, as such are only tools to make the installation the mod selection you have chosen easier for you and also ensure you always get the newest edition of those mods in your game.

 

I do not ever blame BWP or BWS.

 

With BWP, I was the one who edited which components got installed.  So when there was a conflict, it was me that created it. BWP fixed known bugs which was extremely helpful and only loaded the first of conflicting components.  This method meant that some components I would have liked could not be installed, but it kept the game from many crashes.

 

With BWS, I still choose the components, but BWS resolves them with the best known fixes.  I must select the fixes, BWS just lets me know what they are.  The problem is I sometimes do not like either choice to fix the conflict.  Each gives something I do not want so I think I select the better of the two choices.  I am trying to learn how to get around this situation.  Right now all I can do is eliminate some components I like.

 

Now back to the Torgal files.  I can not determine which one is used in the game.  Windows 7 search is not the best.  I searched for Torgal2 and Torgal3, but could not find any text that called either one.  I did find all the files in the mods.  I used ShadowKeeper to compare files as it gives information in plain English.  I found out that one major difference is in "Resistances". Torgal2 has most at 100%.  Acid, fire, and magic fire are at 0%.  Torgal3 has most at 30%.  If Torgal2 has a 100% resistance to missile, how can fire arrows hit him and do fire damage to him?  In fact Torgal2 is immune to all damage so only acid and fire can affect him.  It would take fire ball, flame arrow and like spells to damage and kill him.  But with your party around, I do not think you want to cast many fire ball spells.  The files you provided remove RNDTRE04 and RNDTRE05 from the quick slots and added RNDTRE08 to the inventory slot.  I cannot find any information about any of these three items.  I am curious as to what they are and what they do.

 

Tom

 

 

 

 

Those items do nothing - they stand for Random Treasure and are exactly that. something a dead oponent drops at random.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#17 tomkaz

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Posted 10 March 2016 - 02:57 PM

Hi Roxanne:

 

Thank you.  I have seen many of these.  Now I know to ignore them.  RaNDom TREsure  I should have recognized that.

 

Tom



#18 James M

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Posted 02 June 2018 - 12:55 PM

Thank-you Roxanne for the three Torgal cre files! Placing them into the Override folder solved the problem of Torgal being invincible on my mega mod (self) install. I re-loaded the save from just before opening the door leading to Torgal's encounter.

 

This is my weidu file:

.

Spoiler


Edited by James M, 02 June 2018 - 01:04 PM.