33 replies to this topic

[subtledoctor]

Look I'm not saying I *like* ModMerge... but there's no reason to make a mountain out of a molehill. It's simple to use, it's free, it's been provided by the devs... in short, it's not the end of the world.

I don't see why the devs should do anything official to support unofficial mods. This is all unofficial. So they created and unofficial tool... but it's freely available and works reliably... that's a good thing!

The problem with BWS's error message is simply that it's not helpful. The player has a problem (needs ModMerge) but they don't understand the problem (probably never heard of ModMerge and don't realize they need it). Rather than being helpful - "this doesn't work because you need to use ModMerge first. Here's where to get it" - BWS is entirely unhelpful - "this doesn't work blah blah stupid Besmdog!!1!"

ALIEN put his own annoyance with Beamdog above helping players with some simple information. IMO that is a bad way to address the issue.

[Argent77]

Is modmerge still an issue in BWS? It should be easy to wrap modmerge into a WeiDU mod and apply it automatically by BWS instead of passing the problem on to the user. All it has to do is executing modmerge in a non-interactive way and provide a working uninstallation routine.
 

[The Imp]

Is modmerge still an issue in BWS? It should be easy to wrap modmerge into a WeiDU mod and apply it automatically by BWS instead of passing the problem on to the user. All it has to do is executing modmerge in a non-interactive way and provide a working uninstallation routine.

Well, ALIEN won't be pulling the trigger on PUBLISHING someone elses mod under his name and get a reputation of that... but you could go ahead and make it, under your name... and assume the responsibility of redacting it if a request to do so comes in what ever is that future comes. Aka, do not make ALIEN & BWS the sole responsible... as there has been a lot of flak thrown at this direction for daring to upload mods that are unavailable else where, let alone of making this like actions.

But please, do this in the BeamDogs forum perhaps, so it won't become a forum vs forum war.
EDIT: PM'ed a response to SD.

Edited by The Imp, 01 September 2016 - 12:30 PM.

[subtledoctor]

How is argent77's suggestion any different from every other mod that BWS downloads and installs to the player's game?? ALIEN doesn't claim to be publishing them. Just downloading and executing them.

[Argent77]

@Imp: You are reading way too much into my statement. I have simply mentioned the technical requirements to solve the issue without even touching any political/ideological/legal aspects you're hinting at (whatever that might be). Legal issues can most certainly be cleared up by shooting a PM to Scott Brooks at Beamdog Forums.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

I love a good bashing, but I can't imagine there being any resistance to incorporating Modmerge into any mod distribution setup.  Can weidu be used as a wrapper to execute modmerge and continue with a mod installation, or will it have to remain a separate process?

[The Imp]

Assuming here a lots... but from what I read is, Argent77 says that he probably could make that(as he knows what the modmerger does). But he hasn't.
Probably because "My contributi...". I haven't cause I don't know cheese about what the modmerger does, nor do I have a remember-able account in BeamDog forums, ALIEN hasn't probably because he might not know the modmerger inside out, nor has the access to all the SoD versions, and he said he was only able to install the EET once. That's how much time he has had to dedicate to that version of the install setup.

As for legality, it should not be an issue, but who of us has needed to consider that, it's a technicality yes, but ... it's still a thing to consider, which reflects your relation to the moding community.

Also, you should of course consider all my testament of ALIEN's intentions as heresy. Not hearsay.

[Argent77]

Can weidu be used as a wrapper to execute modmerge and continue with a mod installation, or will it have to remain a separate process?

Modmerge is a simple command line tool like iconv, tisunpack or oggdec, which are already used for quite some time in many mods. A WeiDU wrapper would simply execute the tool and be done with it. The uninstallation process would involve a bit more, as you have to restore the changes manually. Modmerge conveniently makes a backup of all relevant data though. It should be doable with a batch script, since it mainly involves renaming, moving and deleting files.

 

Assuming here a lots... but from what I read is, Argent77 says that he probably could make that(as he knows what the modmerger does). But he hasn't.
Probably because "My contributi...". I haven't cause I don't know cheese about what the modmerger does, nor do I have a remember-able account in BeamDog forums, ALIEN hasn't probably because he might not know the modmerger inside out, nor has the access to all the SoD versions, and he said he was only able to install the EET once. That's how much time he has had to dedicate to that version of the install setup.

As for legality, it should not be an issue, but who of us has needed to consider that, it's a technicality yes, but ... it's still a thing to consider, which reflects your relation to the moding community.

I don't know enough about BWS to assume what can be done to make it work and I don't have any intentions to get further involved into BWS development. But if it's just a matter of putting together a regular mod then I can probably do something.

I don't have access to all SoD versions either. However, the sources of modmerge are freely available, and while I don't know how to code in Go I can still understand enough to make sense of it.

 

To make the mod even more foolproof on the legal side BWS could download and unzip modmerge directly from Scott Brooks site into the WeiDU wrapper. It would also ensure that the mod always uses the most up-to-date version of the tool.

[Roxanne]

The uninstallation process would involve a bit more, as you have to restore the changes manually. Modmerge conveniently makes a backup of all relevant data though....

Do you need that? Modmerge is just a step right after you did a clean installation and before you start to install mods (to unpack the DLC). You do it in order to install further mods. Why would you uninstall it, all you get is the original game? The game after modmerge is not any different from vanilla yet.

[Argent77]

It's probably not needed, but it wouldn't hurt either. It might also help to troubleshoot issues.

[subtledoctor]

From what I can tell Scott Brooks is already working with Wisp to incorporate ModMerge's functions into Weidu. So BWS could either 1) kindly point players who need it to the right place do they can easy prep their game for BWS; or 2) talk to Scott and see if he doesn't mind it being auto-downloaded. Either way, hopefully it would be a temporary stopgap measure.

The rest, the politics, is all BS. Who cares about Vlad? If he doesn't want his mods in BWS that's his business. If I don't want my mods in BWS, that's my business. It would just mean a bunch of people won't use those mods. That shouldn't be ALIEN's concern. (Anyway IWDEE-in-EET will be way better than NEJ ever will be... )

[Argent77]

The legal aspect has been cleared up. Scott Brooks added redistribution and licensing info to modmerge. I can probably put something useful together.

[psycros]

The legal aspect has been cleared up. Scott Brooks added redistribution and licensing info to modmerge. I can probably put something useful together.

 

Now that was the sort of positive news we need.  I hope your experimentation goes well.

 

Regarding mod makers not wanting their content included in anything but a stand-alone form: there's actually an easy "fix" (of sorts).  Both the modders and the collection builders/tool makers need to post clear disclaimers on their sites, forums and in their READMES that state, "if you use this with any other mod, I have no idea WTF may happen."  Obviously, this can be expanded upon in cases where different modders have worked together to insure their stuff is compatible, or where a collection builder has taken great pains to eliminate conflicts and so on.  Even then its still "buyer beware", and that's as it should be.  No one who's putting in the effort to create and release quality unofficial content should pay attention to meaningless "It crashed!!" messages from folks who manually install a random selection of mods.  However, modders should welcome reports from players who have actually done methodical testing to try and help troubleshoot inter-mod problems.  I'm a strong believer in community standards.  From what I can tell WEIDU has helped to establish this for Infinity Engine mods (although I could be misreading things).  I'd love to see BWS become just as reliable and relied upon as WEIDU.  That would help everyone make their mods work better together and that allow more people to experience more mods..which in turns boosts the popularity of the games.  Its a symbiotic thing, really.