5 replies to this topic

[Himself]

So here we are in Chapter 965484 of trying to mess around with Specialist Mages! (Since everybody and their grandma has already run into issues while modding Specialists.)


This is a screenshot from EE 2.3: https://s18.postimg....4p/Baldr002.jpg
 

To be frank, I don't even know if what says in the description actually works, didn't find a quick/sure way to verify.

But assuming it does...

 

I'm trying to mess around with the saving throws scheme, to be more specific, I would need to know that if by changing a spell to use a different save (for example instead of spells, to save death/wand/poly or breath), this change is automatically accounted or completely ignored by the singular bonuses/penalties that Specialist apply to their selected school of magic.

It would also be interesting to know how Specialists accomplish the specific penalty (when casting offensive) and bonus (when resisting) that they apply to their specific school of magic.

I tried casting some spells with a specialist and a regular mage, but the log doesn't show squat. Tried looking at my CHARNAME cre in Near Infinity, again nothing. This means I need people more smart and resourceful than me, which resumes to anybody in this forum LOL

So to find clues and investigate this case I summon ye!

Err... help me if you guys(and gals??) can spare some time or are interested in the matter :DD

[temnix]

You could try a thousand, or several, more rolls, and try to notice the difference, but this leads to the question of whether the random number generator is fair. I've asked, and... There is one authority who ought to know for sure whether the bonuses apply - Beamdog, if Bioware told them. But I doubt you'll get a simple yes or no from them.

Edited by temnix, 12 October 2016 - 04:57 PM.

[Mike1072]

An old thread says the save bonuses and penalties were not implemented in the original engine.

 

Until someone tests to confirm, the biggest evidence for them having been added in EE is the kit description you posted.  (That text is all new.)

 

If they did implement them, they probably hardcoded the behaviour in the engine, based on the spell school specified in the .spl file and the specialization of the caster and target.

 

There's a new EE effect (opcode #346) that could be used in mods to customize these sorts of things.

[Himself]

You could try a thousand, or several, more rolls, and try to notice the difference, but this leads to the question of whether the random number generator is fair. I've asked, and... There is one authority who ought to know for sure whether the bonuses apply - Beamdog, if Bioware told them. But I doubt you'll get a simple yes or no from them.

Yup that why I gave up LOL. Too much testing, I'm just going to assume it somehow works.

 

An old thread says the save bonuses and penalties were not implemented in the original engine.
 
Until someone tests to confirm, the biggest evidence for them having been added in EE is the kit description you posted.  (That text is all new.)
 
If they did implement them, they probably hardcoded the behaviour in the engine, based on the spell school specified in the .spl file and the specialization of the caster and target.
 
There's a new EE effect (opcode #346) that could be used in mods to customize these sorts of things.

Hmm I'm going to try and re-post the same thread in the beamdog forum, maybe we get a DEV or somebody with more accurate/inside info to delve in the subject.

Done - https://forums.beamd...d-a-dev-in-here

Edited by Himself, 12 October 2016 - 05:48 PM.

[Himself]

So here it goes:

Tested in the following manner: BG2 Irenicus dungeon start, CHARNAME illusionist, Imoen normal mage, Minsc with a weapon that sets all saves to zero.

Results after roughly a 100 casts:
illusionist successfully casted Blindness on Minsc a few times, from memory and from scroll, it also did hit after I changed to Save vs Death.
Imoen didn't hit a single time.

After changing Blindness to Abjuration, the illusionist didn't hit a single time after roughly 50-60 casts, at which point I lost patience

Apparently it works flawlessly and automatically reflects changes made to each spell, so long its tagged within the proper school.

Its just a bit sad that its hardcoded and we cant reproduce or create effects with this... for example a HLA giving Specialists further -1/+1 or for Fighters getting extra + save bonus to resist X school(s), or even attaching such effects to items would be awesome!

Edit: subtledoctor has added an extra about bypassing some limitations that is interesting, here: https://forums.beamd...#Comment_818889

Edited by Himself, 13 October 2016 - 10:21 AM.

[temnix]

That's a clever way to test saving throws. As for adding further bonuses and penalties, there must be other ways to do this. One that I know is include an Apply Effects List in spells, targeted at "Caster," and choose there the specialist kit as the condition. (You may think "Caster" will apply to the mage himself, and that's who it checks for the condition, but it lobs the content, the SPL at the same target as the straight effects.) Then link the Apply to a saving throw penalty or bonus in opcode 346, Save vs. School bonus, and choose whatever adjustment you want there. Very briefly lasting, obviously, just a few seconds. You can put this combo up in the effects lists of the spell, before the main effect that requires a save.

 

I've done something like this for my charm spells. I'm changing charms, and Charm Person in my edition has a chance to turn the creature hostile when it wears off. The chance depends on Charisma for everybody, but I also wanted to represent enchanters' mastery of the mind in some way. So I put in an effect, for all mages except enchanters, that applies 50% of the time if the creature turns hostile: it becomes immune to Enchantment. Enchanters are the only ones who don't get this possible bad side effect. I did it through Apply as above, though in this particular case it was a bit messy, because in the list of conditions in Apply there is only a has-this-kit type condition, not a does-not-have-this-kit type. I dearly wished there was a filter on that list for "everybody but." Instead I had to give the subject an immunity to Immunity to Spell School first (yup), and link that to the enchanter kit. Not pretty, but it works.

 

So, generally:

 

Make a spell that targets a Living Actor (or Any Point Within Range).

Create your main effect, say Lightning Bolt on a failed save, target "Preset target."

Create another effect, an Apply Effects List, cut and paste to get it higher on the list. Choose "Caster" as the target of this one. Duration should be one-two seconds.

Pick the kit you want as the condition of the Apply. Invoker, I suppose.

Make an SPL with Save. vs. School to link to.

Voila.

 

This brief save bonus is not "inside" the spell, it's "superadded" to the effect. The idea is that the chance the creature will be hit by another Invocation effect within the same 1-2 seconds is practically nil.

 

What I would like myself is a way to add a save adjustment vs. a specific spell. That would create all kinds of possibilities. Greased creatures penalized against a fireball... you name it.

Edited by temnix, 17 October 2016 - 12:34 AM.