14 replies to this topic

[temnix]

There are some areas in the mod that I'm making which will be much easier to edit by changing the ARE files and including them with the mod than with any Weidu workarounds. For example, I was about to ask, instead of this, whether there is Weidu code for editing the contents of a particular barrel in an area. I would like a custom item to appear there instead of the default gold. I'm sure there is such code. I'm sure there is a way to delete actors I don't want through coding, as well. But as I was going to ask the question, I suddenly felt overwhelmingly tired from having to cater to compatibility in every little thing that I change instead of creating. This is fucking -not- why I set out to make mods.

 

So instead, let me ask you this: if an ARE is overwritten, and I use that nice bit of code from the other thread, for area scripts, to add/extend the script non-destructively, then other people's mods for that area should still work, yes? So long as they don't change the ARE but, say, create NPC at certain points there via scripting, and so on.

[The Imp]

So long as they don't change the ARE but, say, create NPC at certain points there via scripting, and so on.

Well technically yes...
The thing is, your mod needs to be the very first mod to install... so you might as well throw away pretending to making a weidu mod at all.
You might as well just copy the entire extended game files and have it at that. Dialog.tlk and all.

Why fuck about trying to code when you can as well show around your finger and be an asshole.

Or you could search the container name with Near Infinity, extend the .are script a bit and like magic the item you want in the container, is there. ... not that hard is it ?

...tp2 code:

EXTEND_BOTTOM ~ar0602.bcs~ ~Impilation/Item/AR0602.baf~

...baf code:

IF
  Global("IJ#BAC9","GLOBAL",0)
THEN
  RESPONSE #100
    SetGlobal("IJ#BAC9","GLOBAL",1)
    ActionOverride("Chest 7",CreateItem("IJ#brac9",0,0,0)) 
END

Very not so.

Edited by The Imp, 22 February 2017 - 02:54 PM.

[jastey]

If an .are is overwritten, then all changes from other mods that are *not* introduced by script are lost - and there are many. New entrances and travel points, for example. Also, newly added barrels, for example.

 

Jarno already pointed out that adding to an existing barrel is pretty easy by area script. Removing actors could be done by script, too, if they have script names. Removing them via area patching is a bit more complicated, I wouldn't know how to do that. (Removing game content is also not recommended, in case other mods need them, btw.) I could link you to the WeiDU function that makes .are patching easy (in comparison to how it was done before), but with your attitude I don't think I want to spend the time it takes me to explain things if you don't care about community achievements, anyhow.

 

You don't have to share your mod. You can mod anything you want for your private use, replace / edit / add to your game as you see fit.

 

But if you want to share the mod, replacing game resources will turn out to be a dead end pretty quickly*, so best you don't even start going there.

 

*Players want to install mega mod games - as much as possible in one go. And that's the cosmos you have to tell your story in, if you want players to listen. Players tend to be a little resentful if mods destroy the installation.

 

Or, phrased differently: Replacing game recourses is *so* 1990!

Edited by jastey, 22 February 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[temnix]

No, no. Those arguments won't fly. Imp, you need to slow down and think before you say the first thing that comes to your mind. It's only the AREs of a few areas that I'd like to copy over. Wherever do you get "You might as well just copy the entire extended game files and have it at that. Dialog.tlk and all"? The main reason to change an ARE, though, in addition to its just being far easier and more natural - you use an editor to edit - is that the modder's vision determines what the area is going to be like. And Jastey, I'm not making a commodity, I'm expressing myself. Hopefully people will like the result enough to prefer over the original or over alternatives, but, you know, you really can't have your cake and eat it too. With areas, it's either one thing or another. Of course, I'm willing to accommodate other mods to an extent, but if I want there to be a sword in barrel A and NOT gold, for my concept, then I must override the mods that put gold or a mace or a dragon's head there.

Edited by temnix, 23 February 2017 - 05:59 AM.

[The Imp]

Well, which program are you going to use to alter the .are file ?
As the DLTCEP has a trace command somewhere, that makes the exact changes you make to any files to become a weidu.tp2 file you can use to do the same things in other games.

Natural... erhm, when you fuckup a building of a mod, because of your imcompetence, then you fuck up. Do you know a mod called Improved Anvil ?
Or Tactics, TDD, BGT, NeJ. No, the original Tactics, not the beta that's tried to be made into EE version. The original Baldur's Gate Trilogy, not the weidu-ed version. And so forth... they all were overwrites, and look at them now.

but if I want there to be a sword in barrel A and NOT gold, for my concept, then I must override the mods that put gold or a mace or a dragon's head there.

No, you are altering the .are file, not just "the content of the container", there's a hell of a lot of difference.

Edited by The Imp, 23 February 2017 - 07:03 AM.

[Roxanne]

If an .are is overwritten, then all changes from other mods that are *not* introduced by script are lost - and there are many. New entrances and travel points, for example. Also, newly added barrels, for example.

 

Jarno already pointed out that adding to an existing barrel is pretty easy by area script. Removing actors could be done by script, too, if they have script names. Removing them via area patching is a bit more complicated, I wouldn't know how to do that. (Removing game content is also not recommended, in case other mods need them, btw.) I could link you to the WeiDU function that makes .are patching easy (in comparison to how it was done before), but with your attitude I don't think I want to spend the time it takes me to explain things if you don't care about community achievements, anyhow.

 

You don't have to share your mod. You can mod anything you want for your private use, replace / edit / add to your game as you see fit.

 

But if you want to share the mod, replacing game resources will turn out to be a dead end pretty quickly*, so best you don't even start going there.

 

*Players want to install mega mod games - as much as possible in one go. And that's the cosmos you have to tell your story in, if you want players to listen. Players tend to be a little resentful if mods destroy the installation.

 

Or, phrased differently: Replacing game recourses is *so* 1990!

 

 

Well, which program are you going to use to alter the .are file ?
As the DLTCEP has a trace command somewhere, that makes the exact changes you make to any files to become a weidu.tp2 file you can use to do the same things in other games.

Natural... erhm, when you fuckup a building of a mod, because of your imcompetence, then you fuck up. Do you know a mod called Improved Anvil ?
Or Tactics, TDD, BGT, NeJ. No, the original Tactics, not the beta that's tried to be made into EE version. The original Baldur's Gate Trilogy, not the weidu-ed version. And so forth... they all were overwrites, and look at them now.

but if I want there to be a sword in barrel A and NOT gold, for my concept, then I must override the mods that put gold or a mace or a dragon's head there.

No, you are altering the .are file, not just "the content of the container", there's a hell of a lot of difference.

You are wasting your time here. That guy already insulted everyone at G3 and here for giving him "unwanted" advice. Just look at the mods he has published - they consist of putting all-blocking code at the top of baldur.bcs. Now the new *project* is replacing area files. So what?

Use the ignore function.

[jastey]

you really can't have your cake and eat it too. With areas, it's either one thing or another.

No, it's not. The possibilities are not the problem here, your attitude is.  If you want to have a barrel with only your stuff in it, add a new barrel to the area - using WeiDU. If you want to remove stuff from existing barrels because that's what your mod is about, fine, do that, but do it with WeiDU, because there is no reason you do it in a way that the door added by another mod is gone.

[temnix]

Hey, who is this wonderful person you are talking about? It sounds like he's got cojones.

 

I was going to quote Roxanne's strange statement that I used some kind of overriding code in baldur.bcs, but I don't think I'll bother. Maybe she's talking about the 500 and 1000 mods that regularly deduct gold to stop the money glut? Well, it was a rough-and-ready implementation, straight mechanics, no in-game flair, but baldur.bcs is the only place to put that kind of code, and the natural place for it, too. There are some worriers who complain that too much outside code gets added to baldur, supposedly slowing everything down. I put forward an idea that would take care of that, a "script mule," on the Beamdog forums. Not one person took it up, so I'm just going to ignore the hand-wranglers on that topic.

 

The ARE replacements could be any degree of magnitude, in principle. A change is a change. In your home, if you want a painting to hang between the TV and the window, you can't hang a rug there as well. Even if you could put them on top of each other somehow, it would look ridiculous. Learn to choose already. The author of an overwriting mod is still responsible for everything working, but so long as he puts in the effort to eradicate the bugs and provides a detailed explanation of what gets replaced in the readme file, there is no problem whatsoever. In the case at hand, I'm going to replace one large outdoor area ARE, where I want to move the monsters around, move some NPC as well, add many new ones walking and standing and delete a couple of merchants who weren't there in the original BG and have no business existing. One of them sells copies of the magic items you find in the course of adventuring, which is plain impossible, and two others peddle the same boring weapons you can find in a nearby store. The only reason they are there is because no one has come up with better merchants and goods to put in their place. Sorry, fat guys, but I need that room. Four or five small indoor areas are also going to be replaced, because the actors inside need to be moved, they need to be different creatures, too - with different dialogue, of course. Even if I was a masochist and did all that with Weidu or scripts, those changes would still clash with any other mod that tried to change the same actors. In response to Imp, all of this will be done with Near Infinity.

 

The rug or the painting?

Edited by temnix, 26 February 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[The Imp]

The ARE replacements could be any degree of magnitude, in principle. A change is a change. In your home, if you want a painting to hang between the TV and the window, you can't hang a rug there as well. Even if you could put them on top of each other somehow, it would look ridiculous. Learn to choose already. The author of an overwriting mod is still responsible for everything working, but so long as he puts in the effort to eradicate the bugs and provides a detailed explanation of what gets replaced in the readme file, there is no problem whatsoever.

You ever heard of additional walls... there's plenty of space in a house with 100 thousand square meters to place things in between the layers. Painting and a rug, that is the correct choice.

[temnix]

No, because even in a house of 1000 square meters there are only 24 hours a day, and you won't spend the bulk of that time walking up to the walls and admiring everything that might be hung on them - not if you want to do anything else. If you are an idler and that is your dream lifestyle, knock yourself out, but I am not. I am putting my inspiration and ideas in what I make. It is work, and creative work, and the price is people's attention in stead of something else. This is not something I do for pampered consumers to include in their "mega-mod collections," lazily browsing "the latest" like fat kids in a candy store.

 

In any event, I'm going to give all the warnings before I publish anything. The question that I asked here, whether scripts from other mods are going to work with a replaced ARE, has been answered early on. Thanks. Here is another one: is it possible to edit the colors of an area without changing the entire tileset? I should find an area-editing guide to understand these things, but briefly, I'm interested in adding saturation and contrast to an area (indoor). What is the general procedure here? Near Infinity lets me extract an area view as PNG, but that seems to be only for entertainment, if I want a picture to keep.

[K4thos]

 

Like really, the last time I've seen someone replacing whole ARE file was before weidu was created (like 2000 or something). All you want to do when it comes to ARE file format can be patched in via weidu. Do as you wish but for me it sounds silly tbh.

 

Here is another one: is it possible to edit the colors of an area without changing the entire tileset? I should find an area-editing guide to understand these things, but briefly, I'm interested in adding saturation and contrast to an area (indoor). What is the general procedure here? Near Infinity lets me extract an area view as PNG, but that seems to be only for entertainment, if I want a picture to keep.

http://www.simpilot....ltcep/index.htm

[jastey]

Love that meme.

 

temnix: You can post as many warning in your readme as you like. (Most of the) Players don't read readmes. They use BWS for mega installs (which would be good, actually, because BWS can consider your overwriting). Or they just put your mod in where the kind of mod usually goes (fixes first, tweaks last, etc.)

 

And - it will be the other mod author that gets the bug reports, so 'thank you very much' in advance.

Edited by jastey, 28 February 2017 - 10:54 PM.

[temnix]

Thanks for the answer, K4thos. To Jastey: well, if players are too stupid to read readmes, there's nothing I can do about that, is there? The mod I'm making is a revamp of one large area, down to, possibly, a redrawing. It's not a "give arrows +1 to hit" tweak.

[Creepin]

//memo to self: read whole topic carefully before jumping to arguing.

On more relevant note: as long as it is clearly stated that the mod is overwriting and will not fit with Big World, why bother? It's an authors call whether he want to increase his audience by adhering to best practice or he values his creative freedom better. As long as incompatibility is clearly stated anything is a fair game.

Edited by Creepin, 12 March 2017 - 03:55 AM.

[temnix]

I don't really need defending, Creepin. And we weren't arguing, I asked a question and there was a surprise at my choice to do things a certain way. I'm still going to adhere to the best practices, where they serve the purpose.