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NTotSC for EET (and BGT and BG:EE) - Bugthread


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#21 jastey

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Posted 24 February 2018 - 11:56 PM

I went through the mod ressources throroughly and removed dependencies that had nothing to do with either NTotSC itself, DSotSC (one of three versions), or the according game (BG:EE or BGT/EET with the BGII ressources). "Removed" in this context meaning "replaced accordingly with existent ones", including scripts. You shouldn't find an opponent fighting with his bare hand or not at all in the current mod. I left ressources in as much as possible if available in the player's install according to the former mod's dependencies (hence the note that DSotSC should be installed first), and replaced the missing ressources e.g. from BGII where needed.

Leaving in ressources from other random mods not mentioned in NTotSC (there are no comments in the code about dependencies) is not a good thing, as it might lead to null-items in shops etc. Null items usually tend to occupy an item slot in the inventory without being removable. Also, in the EE games, a non-existent character placed inside an area leads to an area crash, not a mere missing of this character as it was in the old game.

The other possibility - identifying the mods the items came from and considering them like I did for the DSotSC items I did not and will not do because of three reasons:
1. the items are unique mod items and - considering how other items in NTotSC were used - way too powerful to be gained by a BG1 party. (The end boss dropped Sarevok's Chaos Sword - two times. You can prepare the next complaining post about why I removed those.)
2. It is NTotSC we are talking about, not the other mod. The items can still be aquired by the other mod, if the player installed it.
3. I have a real life I need to attend to at some point, too.

You think I went the easy way with this update? - After spending 6 weeks fulltime on this conversion I'd laugh you in the face, sorry. The mod is on GitHub - feel free to scan the original NTotSC-BGT ressources, identify the other mods' items, code them in with the appropriate mod checks in the tp2 etc., and make a pull request. Keep in mind that you do not only need to check the creature files themselves, though, but also the items they have, and also whether items are handed out via dialogue, and that there are three sets of area files, one for all supported games, and that you not only need to check the used creature references inside the areas, but also all items inside the containers. Plus the used scripts of the creatures, of course.

Edited by jastey, 24 February 2018 - 11:59 PM.


#22 -me-

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 03:51 AM

Fair enough. I apologize for my initial cynicism; it's just the way you responded to 10th's comment about not knowing about the items sounded like you were just making changes on a whim without considering potential pitfalls. Glad I was wrong here. :)

Thanks both for clarifying and and especially for the recent wave of mod updates.

#23 -me-

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 04:23 AM

by the way, if the concern is that enemies that drop overpowered items, couldn't they be flagged as 'Undroppable' ? Any reason this wouldn't be a good idea?

#24 The Imp

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 06:21 AM

by the way, if the concern is that enemies that drop overpowered items, couldn't they be flagged as 'Undroppable' ? Any reason this wouldn't be a good idea?

The dropped items are intended for the player... if they don't drop, you remove the whole reason to play the adventure. As this is a recreation of a mod... would you take a doctors decree education without ever being able to use that in the sociaty? 


Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#25 -me-

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 07:07 AM

 The dropped items are intended for the player... if they don't drop, you remove the whole reason to play the adventure. 
The players at that stage (NTotSC encounters) would already have so much loot and xp that they wouldn't bother making use of those drops. Do you seriously pick up every drop from every adventure from every mod?

The point about some items being overpowered is certainly valid. But it could also be that the original author wanted the enemies to be a memorable encounter.

Suppose you (as a mod author) give an enemy a sword that boosts stats, casts fireball and chain lightning on every hit. As bizarre and ridiculously overpowered as that sounds, you want that encounter to be a magical, unforgettable moment - something players can talk about years.

Now, let's say some nice person, several years down the road, fortunately maintains your mod and due to player complaints, replaces that sword with a standard +3 sword because otherwise it would be too overpowered in the hands of the player.

In such a scenario, I'm just saying you can address the balance aspect and stay close to the original author's vision of how he wanted his enemies to be.

#26 Roxanne

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 07:20 AM

 The dropped items are intended for the player... if they don't drop, you remove the whole reason to play the adventure. 
The players at that stage (NTotSC encounters) would already have so much loot and xp that they wouldn't bother making use of those drops. Do you seriously pick up every drop from every adventure from every mod?

The point about some items being overpowered is certainly valid. But it could also be that the original author wanted the enemies to be a memorable encounter.

Suppose you (as a mod author) give an enemy a sword that boosts stats, casts fireball and chain lightning on every hit. As bizarre and ridiculously overpowered as that sounds, you want that encounter to be a magical, unforgettable moment - something players can talk about years.

Now, let's say some nice person, several years down the road, fortunately maintains your mod and due to player complaints, replaces that sword with a standard +3 sword because otherwise it would be too overpowered in the hands of the player.

In such a scenario, I'm just saying you can address the balance aspect and stay close to the original author's vision of how he wanted his enemies to be.

I fully agree with that.

What you describe has in deed been done for some old mods recently tuned up for EET. To keep a balance without changing the original intent, some enemy weapons (just +2 items in earlier BG1 chapters, not the big magic) were made un-droppable. Enemies would still be challenging but you would not have a +2 sword for every party member in chapter 4 already.

Making much of the loot un-droppable was also suggested several times for Dark Horizons mod due to the large amount of stuff you could get early on.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#27 The Imp

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 07:24 AM

The players at that stage (NTotSC encounters) would already have so much loot and xp that they wouldn't bother making use of those drops. Do you seriously pick up every drop from every adventure from every mod?
And what if the supposed game doesn't have ANY OTHER MODS IN IT !!!!
I would keep the sword as is. After all, it's what the monster uses too. And yeah, I pick every item, I find in this game and in Pillars of Eternity as I have a container that holds everything and can then decide what to do with each of them.

Yep, Jarno Mikkola. my Mega Mod FAQ. Use of the BWS, and how to use it(scroll down that post a bit). 
OK, desert dweller, welcome to the sanity, you are free to search for the limit, it's out there, we drew it in the sand. Ouh, actually it was still snow then.. but anyways.


#28 jastey

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 10:06 AM

it's just the way you responded to 10th's comment about not knowing about the items sounded like you were just making changes on a whim without considering potential pitfalls.
Oh that's absolutely possible. I assumed it's some other mod's content but also assumed that it was used out of a modded install. Quite arrogant, now that I think of it.

I'm not a tactical player. I replaced the items used in the mod with ressources I had available comparable in might (or, in case of the missing ones, what I thought would be appropriate) but it's well possible the original idea was to make fights harder.

If anyone encounters such an instance, let me know.

#29 jastey

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 10:07 AM

(sorry for the double post, I got an "error in database" error message the first time I tried to post.)

Edited by jastey, 25 February 2018 - 10:07 AM.


#30 jastey

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 05:23 AM

The mod updates to v2.2.1. Hopefully, the random CTD in the areas is now fixed! Changes: -random CTD in areas hopefully fixed (amients and animations are being copied to the override, spawn points and rest encounters were stripped from suspicious creature files)

#31 Creepin

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:03 AM

The players at that stage (NTotSC encounters) would already have so much loot and xp that they wouldn't bother making use of those drops.
How about letting players to decide that? Player could play with 50% XP gain or even 33% as his own decision and last thing he would want is someone deciding on that instead of him. Also, there's no such thing as too much of unique items.
Do you seriously pick up every drop from every adventure from every mod?
That's a joke, right? The only reason to not to pick up loot is when you're absolutely sure there's nothing but 3 GP in it. Why the hell would you play that mod otherwise?

The Old Gold - v0.2 WIP (mod for BGT/BWP/BWS)


#32 jastey

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:18 AM

Creepin: unique items from other mods, which would be doubled. Which doesn't make sense for unique items - I guess we do not have to argue about this statement.

The current NTotSC version underwent a lot of tweaks already. From the tp2:

// Original creator of NTotSC: Aurelinus
// BGT version by SirBillyBob, updated by erebusant (up to version 171)
// ITM/SPL/CRE balancing revision by Vlar
// vanilla items and XP balancing by Manduran


You could add: Removal of doubled unique game items and of other mods by jastey.

You see the mod was tuned down over time several times. The changes I made are in-line with this idea.

#33 Creepin

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 06:42 AM

Creepin: unique items from other mods, which would be doubled. Which doesn't make sense for unique items - I guess we do not have to argue about this statement.
Removal of doubled unique game items and of other mods by jastey.
Jastey, that's all cool, and I have nothing against that, I was arguing strictly against what I cited.

The Old Gold - v0.2 WIP (mod for BGT/BWP/BWS)


#34 jastey

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 07:06 AM

Ok, just wanted to make sure because of the unique items thing.

#35 Ikki

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 09:58 AM

if the concern is that enemies that drop overpowered items, couldn't they be flagged as 'Undroppable' ? Any reason this wouldn't be a good idea?

If you want a powerfull foe that drop no items, then use a monster-type, but humanoid-like enemies should drop the weapon they are using against you

 

// ITM/SPL/CRE balancing revision by Vlar

// vanilla items and XP balancing by Manduran

What change did they do ?

If I'm fine with balancing the spell, the "powerfull" item and creature where fine in the original NTotSC.

 

And thank you jastey for your work on NTotSC and breagar



#36 Roxanne

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 01:26 PM

Here is another issue http://www.shsforums...h/#entry600677.


The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#37 -me-

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:03 PM

How about letting players to decide that? Player could play with 50% XP gain or even 33% as his own decision and last thing he would want is someone deciding on that instead of him. Also, there's no such thing as too much of unique items.
That argument was meant for the items which were going to be replaced by the maintainer anyway because they were supposed to be unique or too powerful. It's retarded to pick up Sarevok's sword several times before you face him.

As for the powerful items, again they were going to be removed and replaced anyway with more reasonable drops. That's why I suggested making both types of items Undroppable; you can still give the player a more reasonable, non-unique drop that Jastey had in mind as reward and at the same time you are not deviating from the way the author envisioned his creature to be. Pay attention. I specifically said:
In such a scenario, I'm just saying you can address the balance aspect and stay close to the original author's vision of how he wanted his enemies to be.

In your infatuation with making sure players are rewarded, you forgot to realize you've redrawn the 'painting' too many times. :clap:
 
If you want a powerfull foe that drop no items...
 
Again, I didn't imply don't drop any items at all. All I was saying was "keep the original (whether it's unique or too powerful), but make it Undroppable (that's an item setting you can adjust); reward with a more reasonable drop".

#38 -me-

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:14 PM

The current NTotSC version underwent a lot of tweaks already. From the tp2:

// Original creator of NTotSC: Aurelinus
// BGT version by SirBillyBob, updated by erebusant (up to version 171)
// ITM/SPL/CRE balancing revision by Vlar
// vanilla items and XP balancing by Manduran


You could add: Removal of doubled unique game items and of other mods by jastey.

You see the mod was tuned down over time several times. The changes I made are in-line with this idea.
 



I understand the changes you made, and I don't disagree with why the changes were made. It's how the changes were made.

My point is, if we keep going down this rabbit hole of removing this and that unnecessarily when it could be handled a bit more delicately, then someday we could be wondering "are we even playing the same mod anymore?"

#39 Roxanne

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 02:50 PM

I understand the changes you made, and I don't disagree with why the changes were made. It's how the changes were made.

My point is, if we keep going down this rabbit hole of removing this and that unnecessarily when it could be handled a bit more delicately, then someday we could be wondering "are we even playing the same mod anymore?"

 

"are we even playing the same mod anymore?

 

No we are not. We are playing (or at least talking about) V2,0 here, the 2018 version of an old mod, adjusted to a 2018 mega mod install of BGT or EET. The whole game is worlds away from what it was when the mod was first released.

For all those that want to turn back the clock - the former version with all beloved bugs and patch attempts is still available, so what?

 

And...Mr. -me- guest...it is time to get yourself a name and a face instead of sniping anonymously.


Edited by Roxanne, 27 February 2018 - 02:54 PM.

The Sandrah Saga

another piece of *buggy, cheesy, unbalanced junk*

 


#40 -me-

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Posted 27 February 2018 - 03:01 PM

So you're saying either stick to enduring all the bugs with the old version, or play with a bug-free but a potentially story-altered version where things could be totally different ?
 

Okay. Makes sense. :new_thumbs: