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The Mirror of Opposition


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#1 temnix

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

The Mirror of Opposition makes copies of the party, they say. I've never fought that battle myself. And I can't find the spell or effect in the toolset that controls the mirror. If it uses Project Image, how does it produce hostile copies of the party members? Normally that effect copies allegiance together with the creature.



#2 The Imp

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 12:28 PM

You never have played the BG1:TotSC's final fight at the Durlag's tower. Random tube video... it's about 9 minutes long. It happens at: videos ~13 minute point. As the mirror fiends are the summoned ...the fiends originally had the same avatars that they players chars do, in the original game. They are hostile and the fight becomes a lot harder as there's two demon knights, the original and the mirrored one. But AOE spells will be good at that, and it's kinda easy fight either way, unlike shown in the video, as the player bite the dust.

Edited by The Imp, 08 December 2017 - 12:38 PM.

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#3 temnix

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 01:52 PM

No, I jumped around Durlag's Tower. It always bored me. But the fight isn't the issue here, it's how the party was copied back then? In BG:EE I can only find files for summoning an ettercap lookalike and so on. Which is awful. I can't believe Beamdog took away the mirroring of the party, if that's what happened back then.



#4 Roxanne

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 02:26 PM

The mirror of opposition in Durlag's Tower just triggers a script that creates some mirror fiends who are nothing but ethercaps and greater doppelgangers.

 

This has often been confused with Nyalee's ToB spell "Mirror of Opposition" DW#Nyopp.spl which is

Simulacrum (Illusion/Phantasm)
Level: 8
Range: 0
Duration: 1 round/level
Casting Time: 9
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

A duplicate of the caster is created when this spell is cast.  The duplicate is almost identical to the caster, making the duplicate a very powerful ally.  The simulacrum is created at 60% of the level at which the caster is currently on.  It has all the spells and abilities that the caster would have at that level.  It also has 60% of the hit points of the caster.  The simulacrum is fully under the control of the caster.

 

This is cast on the players by ReallyForceSpellRES("dw#nyopp",Player1) ....player6 to create copies in the fight against Yaga-Shura's mother. Afterwards an AI changing spell is cast that makes the copies hostile and gives them powerful enemy override scripts.

 

None of this is vanilla game anyway - there is thus no change made for EE.

 

And all the bullshit does not get any better be continuously repeating it and copying hearsay without ever looking into the facts.


Edited by Roxanne, 08 December 2017 - 02:38 PM.

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#5 temnix

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 02:42 AM

So you are saying there never were copies of the characters in that chamber?

 

Okay, but how does that spell change allegiance instantly? That's the trick. Simulacra can be made, sure, and then some kind of area affect spell applied, probably targeting SPECIFIC, to give them scripts and made them hostile, but they are going to start out green. That's a problem. Style is very important to suspend disbelief, that's why Oopah the ogre appears invisible and fades in exactly one second later, to time with the billowing cloud. There is no way to make simulacra start out invisible, though.



#6 subtledoctor

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 03:59 PM

There is no way to make simulacra start out invisible, though.

Are you sure?

#7 temnix

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 01:15 AM

No. But I don't see how, except putting Inv in SIMULACR. Then they would all start invisible.



#8 subtledoctor

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 08:00 AM

I've managed to mess around with Simulacrum spells, making some cool different variants.

One thing you can do is apply effects in simulacr.spl; I think another thing is, the clone will inherit any effects applied permanently on the caster. So you could turn the caster invisible with timing mode 9, then create the clone, then use an effect to cancel the invisibility a second later. End result is, visible caster but invisible clone. Then add something to simulacr.spl to cancel the clone's invisibility on a delay.

Edited by subtledoctor, 11 December 2017 - 08:00 AM.


#9 temnix

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 09:20 AM

That would be very nice, if it's true... Let me test that...



#10 Roxanne

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Posted 11 December 2017 - 11:27 AM

I've managed to mess around with Simulacrum spells, making some cool different variants.

One thing you can do is apply effects in simulacr.spl; I think another thing is, the clone will inherit any effects applied permanently on the caster. So you could turn the caster invisible with timing mode 9, then create the clone, then use an effect to cancel the invisibility a second later. End result is, visible caster but invisible clone. Then add something to simulacr.spl to cancel the clone's invisibility on a delay.

Like I pointed out above, the issue is solved already

STRATAGEMS/SETUP-STRATAGEMS.TP2~ 0 8190 // Improved Minor Encounters

Look at what is done in the Nyalee encounter for ToB.


Edited by Roxanne, 11 December 2017 - 11:27 AM.

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#11 temnix

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 01:32 AM

I can't download a whole mod just to see how one spell works. If you know, why don't you just tell me?

 

To subtledoctor: you are right about duration 9 and clones, good work. You need a handle to control them from the outside, though, which isn't going to be possible by script name, they are all COPY. They can run their scripts, but to stop them and command them you'd have to summon a minion on them and then do it through the minion to LastSummonerOf. Or just have buttons for summoning a shouting minion and script them to listen.



#12 GeN1e

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 04:42 AM

1) Party is first protected against spell-changing effect

2) Then a clone is created. It's allegiance matches the original's, so it'll be EA=2/PC.

3) Then 177 all PC actors (target=3/global/everyone) with the effect - since the original party is already immune to it, only the clone will be affected.

 

It works fine since you can't normally have PCs outside of party, but if you want to copy random enemies then be wary of anything EA=ENEMY that may show up during the step 2.


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#13 temnix

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 08:57 AM

They would still start out green first, though, wouldn't they? Even half a second is too much. It would ruin suspension of disbelief. I always go past options that look glitchy or show some messages to be ignored. Internally you can raise hell, but the surface must be smoooth.



#14 GeN1e

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Posted 12 December 2017 - 10:40 AM

I don't quite remember, it's been years since I tested it. That said, I doubt I would have considered it good enough for release, if it stayed green long enough to matter. Single scripting block to execute 2nd and 3rd steps should be enough to minimize any delay down to instant.


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#15 temnix

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 12:47 AM

subtledoctor's idea is better. Obscure the caster with some kind of flash for a second, make him invisible with duration 9, copy and remove.

 

Speaking of clones, they are interesting because they exist without having a CRE file. Everyone else does, even the main character gets CHARBASE. In a party they start leaving corpses and get manageable inventories, they can make themselves global too, but they still can't be summoned without a file reference. I wonder if they also start out from some basic file, like CHARBASE, judging by the generic portraits they get: Edwin's for copies of mages, for fighters it's either that burly baldhead or Ajantis, I don't remember, and so on.


Edited by temnix, 13 December 2017 - 05:39 AM.


#16 subtledoctor

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:22 PM

They would still start out green first, though, wouldn't they? Even half a second is too much. It would ruin suspension of disbelief.

Isn't there an opcode that hides/removes the selection circle from people? Add it to the caster with timing 9, then remove it; for the clone, maybe, patch in a 337 effect to simulacr.spl that cancels the "hide selection circle" effect on a 2-second delay, or long enough such that your other stuff has been processed and they are no longer green. (I don't recall whether delayed effects work in simulacr.spl.)

#17 temnix

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Posted 14 December 2017 - 06:00 AM

If we are going to use the duration 9 trick, we might as well package everything in that spell to be removed. I suppose part of it could be a very quick change to GOODBUTRED for the party, followed by a switch to ENEMY for the clones. But some kind of fancy flash and a second-long disappearance of party members  would work too.