124 replies to this topic

[Auvrin]

Time to get a copy of the current Valen backed up

*That* is an insult.

Did I mention this was an optional component? Yes, I'm sure I did.

No, no you didn't. Not until I made the mention of getting an unchanged copy backed up. As for my statement being an insult, take it however you wish. It honestly means little to me once I log off this forum on my random haunts. I've never claimed to be 'nice' or tip-toe with what I think.

In general, this is your choice, nor did I ever say anything different. You're altering an existing work into your own ideas, good luck with that, as I said before. Though it would seem that anyone with negative input is being labeled as a 'gaurdian' of Valen, or something along those lines. It sounds more like an easy answer to thwart off any unwanted attention in the form of an indirect insult. I would say this however, I don't defend Valen. I defend my right to have an opinion and openly voice it, even if it's about a written character. Wether it's something you may or may not like is ultimately up to you, because once I've said it, chances are I'm not even thinking about it five minutes from when I posted it.

The major point, however, is that I harbor no hard feelings towards you or your desire to make your own version of Valen. That doesn't change my opinions though.

[serjeLeBlade]

I've received Wes' blessing back in Sept 03 and his generous offer to host it on his site or integrate it as an optional component or directly (if he likes it enough).

@Auvrin:

1) To me, it looks like he *mentioned* it in his first post

2) In my limited comprehension of the english language, what I read there seems to mean that the final decision will be up to Wes, which is good enough for me.
Is it good enough for you too?
Please. Peace?

@ThoriumDragon

Now my half-a-cent value opinion about all of the changes and the additions as you presented them... :

1)

Yes, she will be romanceable, but her romance will be the salt of her story- not the meat. Her romance dialog will be only a part (albeit a potentially important part) of what I envision to be a much larger story

Hehe... this is my favourite one. Do it please!!!


2)

Her origin will be given much more depth.
    Her relationship with Bodhi will be explored

These are very welcome

3)

Her death and dying will be handled differently

Not a bad idea.
(May I ask "how"? Do you have something in mind already or care about suggestions?)

4)

Her vampiric powers will work differently

Hmm... is it necessary? (+ see above)
2 persons trying to "rebalance" Valen at the same time are a little too much...

5)

Her equipment will be different
  - Her skills will be different
  - Her class may be different

To what extent?
Do you mean normal equipment or the special one?
I mean, I wouldn't suggest to change her armor...
Sort of a trademark...
(detail, detail!)

I think that the people here could be less scared about "changes", if they knew what "changes" are we talking about in the first place!

If that sounds vague- that's because it is!  I haven't figured it all out myself yet

Try harder! B)

[Schatten]

@ serje: Auvrin means the romance wasnt mentioned as optional in the original post.

points 3-5 fall under the rebalance category and thus "Hmm... is it necessary? (+ see above)
2 persons trying to "rebalance" Valen at the same time are a little too much...".

[Auvrin]

Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten.

[Thorium Dragon]

@serjeLeBlade:

I've done some work on it and here's what I've got so far...

I figure Valen could intall something like this-

Valen Setup Options:
-Story and Dialog
~Wes Weimer (no change)
~Thorium Dragon

-Vampiric Ability Handling
~Wes Weimer (no change)
~T.G. Maestro (BG2 Refinements) if he wanted to include it here
~Thorium Dragon

-Valen's Class <if #3 above>
~Fighter/Thief (no change)
~Fighter
~Fighter/Mage
~Sorceress
~Assassin
~Monk


Regarding equipment: Some of the new class options for Valen can't wear armor- so something else would have to be implemented for them. Also, I plan for Valen's vampire-specific equipment to be upgradable over the course of the game (see Valen, tombs, and blood).

Regarding death and dying: Upon reaching 1 hp Valen turns gaseous and retreats to a magical urn the PC is carrying. After a set time period she will reform. I discuss this in "Valen's Final Death". Check it out if you want more detail.

Regarding her vampire powers: check out some of the discussions in "Valen Dual Weilding Claws". Some good ideas were put forward there that I am considering- mainly her powers as summoned weapons, coded into her unarmed attack (like a monk's attacks) or as a transformation (like a shapeshifter). As she increases in level her number of abilities and thier potency will increase.

I'll figure out all of the above after I get Valen's story and dialog written, which is my priority at this time.

[serjeLeBlade]

Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten.

I second that wholeheartedly.
I bet most people visiting this forum may possibly be uninterested in seeing Auvrin and me arguing... on the same topic... yet again

@serjeLeBlade:

I've done some work on it and here's what I've got so far...
I figure Valen could intall something like this-

(...)

Now, can we do as we have the "optional component" issue handled properly?
Players who don't like this or that will have the opportunity to choose.
(And players who don't like the ValenThoriumDragonProject item in itself will have the opportunity to save time by not downloading it at all... but maybe these are tricks of the trade, unknown to the occasional player, I see....)

OK OK: Free Silly Bard's trick of the day: if you're uninterested in a mod, *don't download it*!!! Fully granted, it always works!!!

  Valen Setup Options:
    -Story and Dialog
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~Thorium Dragon

I'd call this "to download or not to download"... as mentioned abowe

   -Vampiric Ability Handling
        ~Wes Weimer (no change)
        ~T.G. Maestro (BG2 Refinements) if he wanted to include it here
        ~Thorium Dragon

    -Valen's Class <if #3 above>
         ~Fighter/Thief (no change)
         ~Fighter
         ~Fighter/Mage
         ~Sorceress
         ~Assassin
         ~Monk

I would suggest: ask yourself this: "is it necessary to change <insert item from Valen's present skills/class/powers list here> for my mod to work?"
The challenge in modding is to try to do it without changing what already exists and is accepted by the majority of the players base.
You WILL get complaints ... no wait ... you will get *scores of people yelling at you*, if you dare change anything about Valen that the majority of current players like.
Do you really want to take this chance?
No wait
The correct question is: do you really NEED to take this chance for your mod to work? Is it absolutely needed?

(maybe not I guess, since you're listing 6 classes including the original one... my suggestion is, go with the original one if you just can make it... you'll save yourself a lot of trouble this way)

Regarding equipment:  Some of the new class options for Valen can't wear armor

(that's the kind of trouble I was suggesting to keep as possible away of.
In the first releases of your mod at least)

(see Valen, tombs, and blood).

Believe it or not, I've read all of your posts in this forum (about 50, am I correct?)

Regarding death and dying: Upon reaching 1 hp Valen turns gaseous and retreats to a magical urn the PC is carrying.

Ahem... :eek: Who's supposed to have provided such a power to the pc, and when? (and "Why"?)
("when?" and "why?" are simply questions for you to answer - maybe I've missed some thread in some other forum - I'm not being sarcastic, I'm really naively puzzled. I mean, mortals are not supposed to possess "urns" that save vampires from the true death... you've lost me somewhere, I'm sorry!)

Final Deep Nignt Drunken Bard Wise Suggestion of Goodnignt:
what about making the (non-)romance thing a non-gender-related thing?
This is not a question that doesn't need an answer.
Just think about it.
Listen to the sound of it (Serje starts playing)
"Romance just male (human elf or half-elf...)"

Hey, this doesn't sound like Valen, mate...
no matter the music, no matter how I try to play it...
This sounds like Aerie, Tashia at best, it's not Valen sound!

Goodnignt everybody
The Silly Bard is going to free you of his presence in a matter of seconds

Remember me and smile
Dream of me and laugh
(Amd I love you all... IF you are ladies I mean!)

[Tancred]

For every man and woman who believe as little should be changed as possible, there's probably one who's curious enough to want to see what Thorium Dragon comes up with.

[Schatten]

"Thank you for saving me the bother, Schatten. "

No problem.

well, your install options are okay. so i can get the best out of 3 mods.

ähm.... does a vampire rest in an urn?? i thought its a coffin.

well, i am out of here since debatting is again futile. i just wait for the release.

[Thorium Dragon]

Does a vampire rest in an urn?? I thought it's a coffin.

There is no debate necessary, Schatten. You asked a simple, fair question, here's an answer:

You?re right, it generally is a coffin.

The urn thing grew out of the Valen's Final Death thread as a way for Valen to "die". The original idea was for Valen to retreat to the Graveyard (which makes a lot of sense), but that creates a problem if Athkatla is inaccessible to the PC.

I proposed the urn idea as sort of a "portable grave". As I thought about it, it struck me as something I could write about, as well as being a practical solution to Valen's unkillable fog. As it stands now, the urn gets an explanation and functions as an important plot device.

[serjeLeBlade]

The urn thing grew out of the Valen's Final Death thread as a way for Valen to "die". 
...
As it stands now, the urn gets an explanation and functions as an important plot device.

I've read that thread again but my question stays the same.

It's just curiosity: such a portable resting device is a luxury that no vampire I ever heard about, not even the most powerful ones, possessed.
Where did it come from? Valen gives it to the pc? Or Bodhi does it?
(Is any of the two of them supposed to trust the pc so much?)
Or will there be some specific quest or event related to its origin?
Nothing serious anyway...
Just curiosity as I mentioned above.

Also, I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic compnent non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).
What do you think about this?

[jester]

Also, I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic component non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).
What do you think about this?

Since bodily love, not to mention sex, should be beyond all undead, she could "romance" anything up to Irenicus or the jailkeep golem as it would be but a memory of love from her former life.

[T.G.Maestro]

Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state?

[serjeLeBlade]

Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state?      

Well, I would try Ann Rice's way.
Have you read "Queen of the Damned"?
The feelings the vampire Lestat was experiencing towards his Queen reasonably resembled "love" enough to be called like so, imho

The same holds true for what he felt for his mother, imho again.

[jester]

Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state?      

Don't know about the queen, but his mother would be a memory of love rather than love . That said, I do think that the romance idea is viable to envision, since there are some people who even romance a Bhaalspawn , but the "..and they *shrug* lived happily ever after" bit in the epilogue would have to be altered. BTW Valen would not romance a schmug who declines godhood for a nice peasant hut.

[Thorium Dragon]

Such a portable resting device is a luxury that no vampire I ever heard about, not even the most powerful ones, possessed.

True, but as I said, it does get an explanation in the story. Hopefully it will satisfy.

Where did it come from? Valen gives it to the pc? Or Bodhi does it?

I address those points in the story, I'd rather not spill the beans here

Is any of the two of them supposed to trust the pc so much?

It's not an issue of trust, believe me.

Will there be some specific quest or event related to its origin?

Yes, to both.

I would like to know what people think about the idea to make the romantic compnent non-gender related...
I was thinking about the fact that Valen should be able to love any charming, powerful, evil woman at least in the same way she "loved" her mistress (and especially after Bodhi's disappearance, she could really feel the need of someone to "replace" her).

That's kinda' what happens, already. The "romance" is basically a footnote on that overall theme, (along with origin, ect.) for male PC to explore- or not (and it doesn't end the story if the PC doesn't, unlike the Bioware romances).

Frankly, how do you explain anything related to love in a vampiric state?

Differently. Very differently. It would have to be, and that's the approach I take.

I would try Ann Rice's way.

I've never read Anne Rice, but I hope you don't compare me too closely to a professional, published author. I'm fairly sure I'm not quite in that league!

[serjeLeBlade]

I've never read Anne Rice, but I hope you don't compare me too closely to a professional, published author.  I'm fairly sure I'm not quite in that league! 

Don't worry about that, it's not Ann Rice's style of writing what I like about her, I like the concepts and reasoning behind her stories.
And so I like yours (at least, the ones I've read in this forum) so everything should be fine

How are you doing?
Are you planning to post some kind of example or prewiew of your work in the near future?

Don't know about the queen, but his mother would be a memory of love rather than love  . That said, I do think that the romance idea is viable to envision, since there are some people who even romance a Bhaalspawn  , but the "..and they *shrug* lived happily ever after" bit in the epilogue would have to be altered. BTW Valen would not romance a schmug who declines godhood for a nice peasant hut.

I agree to every point.
The idea of "memory of love" is very appropriate.
I would suggest the concept of "memory of having been able to love", too.
(It was Irenicus the one who was losing that, not the vampires -i.e. Bodhi-... am I correct?) :???:

[Thorium Dragon]

How are you doing?
Are you planning to post some kind of example or prewiew of your work in the near future?

I'm progressing pretty well, although never as fast as I would like

I don't plan on posting previews. But as I near completion I'll give an approximate amount of the dialog added, and a more specific overview.

I do have some news on a separate note- T.G. Maestro and myself have worked out a tenative schedule to integrate our Valen mods into a single installation as outlined earlier in this thread.

My goal is to have the mod completed and posted by early March.

[LordKableNikon]

Ok I just want to point out to all you romance haters out there....
your character.... the MAIN character is the son of Bhaal,
The Lord of Murder, what comes with murder.... BLOOD...
What supposedly vampires like.... Blood...
Are we seeing a connection?
If Valen found out he was a son of Bhaal, why the hell
would she not want to atleast try and seduce him....
come on, When Throne of Bhaal Comes around,
Where he has the choice to ascend, can we think blood god
and like vampire god,and so which blood crazed vampire woman
wouldn't want to be his consort and be the Lady of Blood and Murder?
I just see that also a little different because like Sarevok is some
Dialogue asked if he could be "my general" leading an army and just
murdering killing and pillaging all over amn and the sword coast.
I was like HELL YAH, but when the ending came up he didn't do any of
the things he wanted to do. I felt really boned as the ending came up short
so like re-doing the ending would be hella tight as an idea.
Adding Banters of like:
1) Valen during TOB to actively try harder to romance/seduce
the PC. B)
2) Have like Edwin kiss his feet so when he ascends edwin becomes
an "elminster for murder and blood" B)
3) Have Sarevok actually be your general and like have your evil army rape the sword coast. B)
4) Have Korgan lead portions of that army B)
5) I could care less what that sadistic bitch viconia does anyhow, have Valen feel jealous and kill her in her sleep..... yes I like that idea. (Since Korgan hates her too)
So another point is that all the romances I have seen, it allows you to "have your cake but not eat it..." and I feel downed by it.
Also My Final Point is. Well Valen is Chaotic Evil.... is there a thing or did my world just flipped upside down and Chaotic Evil people aren't attracted to Power?
Like when the PC goes into the slayer she'd be "jumping for joy" seeing like oh yah
seduce this person and I can be a goddess.
So yah these are just my "humble opinions...."
I actually like BG2 and TOB because the Banters some of them I find are just funny others are there to make it feel like the npc's aren't just figures that blindly follow your clicks(Which I remember in baldurs gate 1, Edwin: "Elminster this, Elminster that, Give me a few hundered years and a pointy hat and I'll kick his arse." I'd be like now I am a god I will give you your shot edwin, instead of leaving him out to dry when you ascend in the original TOB.
my 2 cents

P.S. Yah I am just a guest to this forum so what would I know....

[Seifer]

All of this falls on one flaw although it is an important ones.

Valen is a thrall to a more powerful, dominant and older vampire. Romance should be off the agenda permantly.