90 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?m not too keen on the C/M ?Familiarity with Magic? HLA idea. Too close to the existing Sorcerer HLA Casting by Intent IMO.

Ideas that I would offer instead:

Union of Magic

In the process of mastering both Arcane and Divine magic the caster has gained enhanced understanding of root similarities of both. After selecting this HLA the caster will gain the ability to choose a memorize a select few Arcane spells in place of his normal Divine selection and vice versa.

In practice this ability would put 1 or 2 Mage spells, like say Magic Missile, in the characters list of cleric spells that he can memorize. It would also add a few clerical spells to his mage spellbook. Tactically this HLA would allow the character to retain the current wide spell selection or really load up on a few spells depending on his current memorization choices. Ideally there would be one new 'mage' spell in the cleric selection for each spell level & vice versa.

Cleric spell level 6 to = Mage 6th & 7th. Cleric spell level 7 to = Mage 8th & 9th.


Divine Wish

While pure Clerics are able to beseech their deity for Divine Intervention and pure Mages are able to literally fulfill a ?Wish? using Arcane magic the Cleric/Mage is able to do both at one time. Using this innate ability the caster is able to combine both Divine aid and Arcane energy into a potent desire fulfilling vehicle.

In practice this ability would work a little like the current existing Wish and Divine Intervention spells. When used a Planetar would appear and speak to the caster much like the existing Wish spell. I would like something that is like Limited Wish in that there are repeatable & ?one time? Divine Wishes that could be asked for.

[T.G.Maestro]

I?m not too keen on the C/M ?Familiarity with Magic? HLA idea. Too close to the existing Sorcerer HLA Casting by Intent IMO.

The same here, see one of my last posts.

Union of Magic

Not implementable, I fear. I don't think we could paste those spells into the the mage/cleric spell tables without changing the base 2DAs - and that would affect ALL clerics and mages in the game.

Divine Wish

I have three objections:
1.: this is WAY too powerful. We want weaker yet fitting HLAs for these multis.
2.: why have an additional Wish ability, when we have a Limited Wish and a Wish already?
3.: CRAZY amount of work.

Thanks for the ideas anyway!

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 17 May 2004 - 07:44 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?ll ask your pardon in advance on this post but I?m going to ramble a bit.

This weekend I had to drive 6 hours to be at my sister?s college graduation. It was my first solo road trip in a long time. While I was in the car, among other things, I thought about what might make a good F/M HLA.

I considered an advanced version of Enchanted Weapon that allowed for a more ToB useful weapon summons ... but by ToB the existing weapons are already fantastic. I just couldn?t convince myself that there was really a need for this or find a reason why a normal mage wouldn?t be able to do this too.

Next I considered buffing options. Among other things what F/M?s tend to do is cast stuff like Stoneskin, Mirror Images, etc. and go nuts in melee. I pictured making a track that went something like this, Hardiness, Resist Magic, & then something new that was a combo of both. But as nice as this idea sounded it just didn?t feel right. I figured that it might actually be better for a Wizardslayer than a F/M. Also many of the existing spell buffs were better anyway.

Then I remembered my old Rolemaster PnP days. One of the things the RM equivalent of the F/M did was enchant his own weapon. Over time it became more potent. He could teleport it to his hand and do other fun tricks with it too. Obviously straight out enchantment was out given the number of weapon files that would need to be created but maybe some of the other ideas could be used.

Since F/M?s use magic to enhance their fighting (and to a limited extent fighter THACO to give better results on touch spells) then maybe they could use a HLA that used their weapons to enhance their spells.

Ideas I had included:

Weapon Store ? basically a sequencer type spell that ?stores? one or more spells ?in the weapon?. It would work just like a normal spell sequencer or trigger.

Weapon Extension ? this one would be tougher to implement. Basically the idea is that F/M?s can cast touch spells ?through? their weapon. Instead of creating a ?magic? weapon when the spell is cast this HLA would override that and let the F/M use his normal weapon and use an invisible projectile to make the spell effect occur on the target when hit. Implementation would be a bit tricky. I?m picturing something that would work kind of like a sequencer. The F/M would use Weapon Extension and then select his ?touch? spell.

One of the reasons I really liked this latter idea is that in ToB many of the low level touch spells are useless since by that time the weapons are so much better. This kind of HLA would keep them relevant the whole game.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Union of Magic

Not implementable, I fear. I don't think we could paste those spells into the the mage/cleric spell tables without changing the base 2DAs - and that would affect ALL clerics and mages in the game.

Stalkers & Avengers get kit specific spells that don't appear in the full tables. Heck Jahiera has her own set of special spells that normal F/D's can't pick. I'll look at this but I'm pretty sure that this is doable.

As for the mage side it's even easier based on what I understand. You just add the spell to the game but don't put it in the 2da list. The Kesley Fireshield Green is a good example of this. It's a spell. It's used by an item but Sorecerers and the like can't pick it. However it can be added to a character via Shadowkeeper or script. This HLA would just add it to the individual's spellbook via script.

Divine Wish

I have three objections:
1.: this is WAY too powerful. We want weaker and STILL fiting HLAs for these multis.
2.: why have an additional Wish ability, when we have a Limited Wish and a Wish already?
3.: CRAZY amount of work.

Thanks for the ideas anyway!

I think that maybe I didn't type enough here. I wasn't picturing full Wish + full DI. I was thinking that Divine Wish would be more powerful than Limited Wish but less so than Wish or straight DI. It would sacrifice power for repeatability and control.

IMO both Wish & DI leave a lot to be desired in terms of how random they are. I like to *know* what I'm going to get when I cast a spell.

As for crazy amount of work ... well what else do you have to do now?

[T.G.Maestro]

I?ll ask your pardon in advance on this post but I?m going to ramble a bit.

Come on, why are you asking my pardon? It is my pleasure to hear your ideas.

To say the least, the weapon "bufing" suggestions are very interesting. The only problem is that I don't know how to implement them at the moment, and I don't have enough time to examine the problem thoroughly. Maybe later, once the work on v2 has started, we'll have more time to consider these ideas. Thanks!

[Schatten]

"Not implementable, I fear. I don't think we could paste those spells into the the mage/cleric spell tables without changing the base 2DAs - and that would affect ALL clerics and mages in the game."

cant you change the icon location to do it?

edit: not for all spells but a selected few perhaps get moved.

Edited by Schatten, 17 May 2004 - 08:00 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

As for crazy amount of work ... well what else do you have to do now?

Heh - simply preparing for 5 Uni exams in Law in 2-3 weeks. Quite exhausting.

[MagusWizardo]

"Not implementable, I fear. I don't think we could paste those spells into the the mage/cleric spell tables without changing the base 2DAs - and that would affect ALL clerics and mages in the game."

cant you change the icon location to do it?

edit: not for all spells but a selected few perhaps get moved.

The reason it can't be done, is because the spells you know on the divine side, and the spells you can know on the mage side, are controlled by a IDS file. To add more possible Cleric spells,
1) Affects all clerics, since there is only one IDS controlling this.
2) Cannot be done at a specific level, and those extra spells with be available as soon as that level of spell is open to cast.

Adding some Cleric spells to the Mage side, on the other hand, is possible (probably), but it would be an absolute mess to the point where they would be different spells as far as the game is concerned. For example, consider this scenario: a mod which is installed after refinements alters "Armour of Faith". Assume this is one of the spells that refinements allows the mage side to memorise. Refinements has previously copied the spell file for armour of faith, and appended the SPELL.IDS file (because the only way to achieve the desired effect).
This is what happens:
The player chooses the HLA, which adds "Armour of Faith" to their level 1 mage spells.
The Armour of Faith on the Cleric side is affect by the other mod as you would expect.
The Armour of Faith on the Mage side is the version of armour of faith that existed before Refinements was installed.
Whereas, the idea of the HLA is that they should be the same spell.

And then there's the matter of the maximum number of spells you can know of a specific level on the Mage side...

[Schatten]

i thought of this:

when you choose this hla you get x mage spells moved/copied to the cleric side. and y cleric spells moved to wizard side. when you cant cast mage spells anymore but you must cast cloud kill and cloud kill is one of those spells you can cast it as a cleric spell. this would be possible. and the amount of work is not too much because you need to alter some parameter for (x+y) spells.

[Jinnai]

Weapon of the Gods

Again, the problem with this one are the alignment bonuses. Currently I can set 2 different type of HLAs, Good and Evil. It would be very hard for me to set the specific alignment bonuses one by one, and the type of the summoned weapon is also questionable. For example the favored weapon of Talos is the spear.

I meant only if you get it that figured out, though it you do that, figuring out what weapon to give (based on kit) wouldn't be that much more.

[Littiz]

Yes, I've been convinced multiclasses need something new as well.
We're trying to figure out what fits best.

[J Beau]

Do you think you can keep us updated on decisions you make about this part? Just to wet our appetite. Let us know if you need more ideas.

[T.G.Maestro]

We are working on the following ATM for multis:

- Concealment (permanent Non-Detection) for Thief-Mages;
- Combat Reflexes (permanent bonuses to AC, speed and saves vs. breath) for Fighter-Thieves;
- Slippery Mind (permanent protection from Charm effects) for Fighter-Thief-Mages;
- Feral Lash (an ability that works the same way as Lower Resistance, but reduces the target's physical and elemental resistances instead) for Fighter-Druids;
- A HLA that would work the same way as Resist Magic, but would offer 40% resistance to Magic Damage instead for Fighter-Mages;
- a HLA that would offer a powerful one-time bonus for one attack vs. a creature of opposite alignment, OR would add some weaker permanent bonuses vs. a creature of the opposing alignment for Fighter-Clerics;

This is what we have for now - if you have ideas, suggestions for new ones for the missing multis, feel free to post them.

[Schatten]

concealment can be seen with true sight?

[the bigg]

concealment can be seen with true sight?

If you cast invisibility yes, if you hide, use a potion of invisiblity or the staff of the magi you should be safe. at least that's what the Clck of non-detection used to do. And a thief detecting illusions will reveal you no matter what. Finally, enemies who can see the invisible aren't fooled (obviously)

[maximize]

We are working on the following ATM for multis:

- Concealment (permanent Non-Detection) for Thief-Mages;
- Combat Reflexes (permanent bonuses to AC, speed and saves vs. breath) for Fighter-Thieves;
- Slippery Mind (permanent protection from Charm effects) for Fighter-Thief-Mages;
- Feral Lash (an ability that works the same way as Lower Resistance, but reduces the target's physical and elemental resistances instead) for Fighter-Druids;
- A HLA that would work the same way as Resist Magic, but would offer 40% resistance to Magic Damage instead for Fighter-Mages;
- a HLA that would offer a powerful one-time bonus for one attack vs. a creature of opposite alignment, OR would add some weaker permanent bonuses vs. a creature of the opposing alignment for Fighter-Clerics;

This is what we have for now - if you have ideas, suggestions for new ones for the missing multis, feel free to post them.

Nice. I especially like the Combat Relfexes for Fighter/Thieves. Fighter/Thieves are VERY cool and seriously deserve a nice HLA to compliment the, err, coolness of them.

And like someone else said earlier, the Cleric/Thief is in desperate need of... Something. (A nice HLA, of course.)

[Caedwyr]

An idea for a Mage/Thief or Cleric/Thief:

Shadow Form
(Necromancy)
(Shadow)
Level : 8
Range: 0
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time : 1 rd .
Duration : 1 rd ./level
Area of Effect: The caster
Saving Throw : None

By means of this spell, the caster temporarily changes himself into a shadow. The caster gains the movement rate, Armor Class, Hit Dice, and
all abilities of a shadow . His chilling touch requires a normal attack roll . It inflicts 1d4+1 points of damage and drains one point of Strength (drained Strength returns 2d4 turns later) . A human or demihuman reduced to 0 hit points or 0 Strength by the caster in shadow form has lost all life force, and is immediately drawn into the Negative Material Plane to forever after exist as a shadow, unless recovered by means no less potent than a full wish.

All of the caster's weapons and equipment stay with him, but cannot be used while the caster is in shadow form . The wizard is unable to cast spells in shadow form, but is immune to sleep, charm, and hold spells (save those specifically effective against undead), and cold-based
attacks . He is 90% undetectable in all but the brightest of surroundings . A wizard in shadow form can be turned by a priest as a "Special" undead.

When the spell ends, there is a 1% chance that the caster will permanently remain as a shadow. Nothing short of a wish will return the
caster to his normal form .

Obviously you wouldn't want to use something like this in its raw form, but it may provoke some other ideas.

[T.G.Maestro]

Shadow Form

Maybe for Thief-Mages. Still, it is rather a pure mage spell than a fitting multi ability.

Any ideas for cleric-thieves?