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#201 -Guest-

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 10:38 AM

And equating it with beastiality as you put it is just downright uncalled for and offensive.


And why is this offensive? I mean... what is the big difference? If we say that there is nothing bad with loving a man/woman what is so strange about loving a creature with differently shaped body? I mean... either you forego all limitations or you sound hypocritical even to yourself... How is say making love to a goblin or a fire elemental any worse than to a fellow man? In the Realms of course. In RL I suppose sexual liason with a creature that is less intellient can be considreed an exploitation... same as pedofilia... but intelligent construct or a non-humanoid race lover sounds ok to me...

#202 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 10:52 AM

:huh:

And equating it with beastiality as you put it is just downright uncalled for and offensive.


And why is this offensive? I mean... what is the big difference?



Because it's implying that those who are homosexual are animals -- which they are not, and most are not 'controlled by blind animal lust'.

If we say that there is nothing bad with loving a man/woman what is so strange about loving a creature with differently shaped body?



Because A. your beastiality comparison equate gays to being animals, which again they are not. B. Differently shape body has part to do with it -- not all creatures are sexually compatible, and also there is the INTELLIGENCE difference.


How is say making love to a goblin or a fire elemental any worse than to a fellow man?



What kind of idiot would try to make love to a fire elemental? :huh: That's just asking to be incinerated.


In the Realms of course. In RL I suppose sexual liason with a creature that is less intellient can be considreed an exploitation... same as pedofilia... but intelligent construct or a non-humanoid race lover sounds ok to me...



And you answer your own question why the comparison is offensive -- even in the Realms, it's same thing -- a goat, sheep or what-have-you has no intelligence, or conscience, so it's exploitation.

Are constructs made for sexual use? can one even have the EMOTIONAL intimacy capability from one? It's not just about sex.

non-humanoid lovers really vary on what it is, after all, a deva lover would be far different then a demon one.

But does not mean that homosexual is equal to beastility.
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#203 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 10:53 AM

And if you don't like, don't download, simple as that
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#204 -Guest-

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:10 AM

About elelmental lovers -- there are genazi you know... they have to come from somewhere. Hmm. But seriously, yet another homosexual lover mod does not strike me as particularly interesting because frankly you have not mentioned much else about your charcater, besides being 'young' and unexperienced. Which by itself brings an element of teenage desire to be trendy into the mod. Wow. Bad me, now I am 'ageist' as well as sexist...

I think the best way to go is to actually sit and write the thing and post a few dialogs for all to see... otherwise the conversation is pointless, and this thread is old enough as I can now see.

#205 Plasmocat

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:12 AM

I cannot believe are you are seriously asking why comparing bestiality to homosexuality is offensive. At least you didn't go with the cliche of comparing it to pedophilia like most homophobes making this kind of comparison usually do.

In the Realms, having a relationship with a member of a non-human race (as in elf) is just not the same thing as bestiality. Having a relationship with a non-humanoid lover is not the same thing as having a relationship with someone of a non-human race. Goblins and orcs *are* humanoid, even if they are not humans. Fire elementals have shown no sign of being sentient that I've seen to this point, and I'm not sure they are a life form in the material way we understand it.

Personally, considering that you have to know how offensive you're being and since you're not even acknowledging or refuting points that have been given to answer your assertions, I tend to think you're just trolling for reactions at this point.

You appear to be just another of those ppl who can't stand it when other ppl don't consider their points of view exceedingly right. And when others fail to see the folly of their ways when presented with your comment, then have to make tedious, repetitive, and offensive arguments. I don't know if it's with the idea that repetition or sensationalism will bring others around, or if it's an attempt to subvert the discussion by trolling for flames.

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "guests" are just the same person coming back to the same thread to pretend to agree with him/herself and to add another log to the fire. That's another common trolling behavior.

This wouldn't be the first thread, or the first msg board where that kind of thing has happened, that's for sure.
All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning. -- Albert Camus

#206 Longinus

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:27 AM

Sometimes I wonder how many of these "guests" are just the same person coming back to the same thread to pretend to agree with him/herself and to add another log to the fire.  That's another common trolling behavior.

Personally, when I debate I never hide, but that's just me.

I have nothing against this mod since it's a new character altogether. If Lady Lefay planned to rewrite Keldorn into someone who after more than a decade of marriage suddenly discovered that he was attracted to men, then I'd have a problem.

The only issue I've raised in this topic is whether or not any paladin order would welcome a gay paladin into its fold. In the very least it's questionable even though most of the posters here seem to believe that no one in the Forgotten Realms would have a problem with homosexuality. Who is naive enough to believe that?

Edited by Longinus, 20 August 2004 - 12:42 PM.

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#207 -Guest-

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:33 AM

You appear to be just another of those ppl who can't stand it when other ppl don't consider their points of view exceedingly right. And when others fail to see the folly of their ways when presented with your comment, then have to make tedious, repetitive, and offensive arguments. I don't know if it's with the idea that repetition or sensationalism will bring others around, or if it's an attempt to subvert the discussion by trolling for flames.


I am posting as a guest because all the gay writers and readers of the board will unite in their zeal to squash the offender who dares to peep a word against yet another mod like this. As for trolling and agressiveness - Plasmo, by reading your own posts it is quite obvious that you are the one who is on the offense and always interested in the same topic only...

In my last post I stated that posting a few dialogs would be the best way to prove the point that Dante is something more than yet another clone of 'alternative sexuality' npc.

#208 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 11:52 AM

few more sampler.

bTW, I'm finding it difficult to write for Haer'Dalis and Yoshimo for some reason.


[Night]
Dante: Aerie, I have heard all races have different names for stars? especially for the clusters?the Avariel? the winged ones; do they have special names for them?
Aerie: Yes? oh we do, Dante, Stars to prophesy, Stars to guide us home, and ones that sparkle even brighter upon special days. I heard you humans named the Stars after animals, and heroes? we Avariel named them for events, magical beasts, and emotion?even though we are of the sun, the stars still hold meaning for us. But? but, the stars had become dull and faded to me?
Dante: why? why is that?
Aerie: it is painful to watch at times? sometimes I can see the star that hovers over my former home?welcoming? but? but to know I will never be welcomed among them again? with the loss?the lost of my wings.
Dante: If you cannot bare the star that leads home? is there a star of hope to focus upon?
Aerie: h? hope? I? I barely remembered the names of the common constellations Dante?but? hope? maybe I?ll try to find that hope star you speak of.
Dante: you do that, okay?
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#209 Plasmocat

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 12:19 PM

You appear to be just another of those ppl who can't stand it when other ppl don't consider their points of view exceedingly right. And when others fail to see the folly of their ways when presented with your comment, then have to make tedious, repetitive, and offensive arguments. I don't know if it's with the idea that repetition or sensationalism will bring others around, or if it's an attempt to subvert the discussion by trolling for flames.


I am posting as a guest because all the gay writers and readers of the board will unite in their zeal to squash the offender who dares to peep a word against yet another mod like this. As for trolling and agressiveness - Plasmo, by reading your own posts it is quite obvious that you are the one who is on the offense and always interested in the same topic only...

In my last post I stated that posting a few dialogs would be the best way to prove the point that Dante is something more than yet another clone of 'alternative sexuality' npc.

Dude, you don't know me or my interests. What a lame attempt at I guess is supposed to be a dig.

You call me aggressive because I pointed out that it's easy to troll behind a guest nick & to call you on your crap? Ha! Well, if that's all it takes to be what you consider "aggressive," that's pretty sad. And I certainly wouldn't consider that an insult, given the circumstances.

All you did with your comments is further illustrate my point. (Admitting that you are hiding as an unregistered guest so you don't have to take responsibility for your offensive comments as your regular "self." And ignoring the issues for the sake of sensationalism. Why don't you just come out & ask a mod to close the thread & save us the "interplay?")
All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning. -- Albert Camus

#210 -Ashara-

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 12:45 PM

The banter itself has a good topic, I am comfortable with your Aerie. More so than with Dante, who might need more work to establish a voice for himself.

It will sound like an idiotic nit after the serious debate that was held here, but I'd want to humbly ask to capitalize in the beginning of the sentences in the character's speech. Occasional grammatical errors do not bother me, but a systematic stuff is a bit jarring. I hope that you will not forgo editing prior to coding, because there are some things that will introduce unintended humor in at least the presented banter (bare stars).

#211 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 12:51 PM

yea. this is a bare-bones, I think I pretty much have to go in and overhaul almost the entire dialouges I've written for Dante, espeically for Him/Yoshimo, and Dante/Jaheria -- I'm really not happy with it.

And I know Viconia's will need tweaking.
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#212 Plasmocat

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 12:54 PM

Will you have a Beta version out soon? Also, are you still looking for writers?
All great deeds and all great thoughts have a ridiculous beginning. -- Albert Camus

#213 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 01:13 PM

Writers wil be most appreicated -- unfortunately a beta won't be out anytime soon until I learn to beable to program :( techy stuff makes my head implode.
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#214 Lady LeFay

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Posted 20 August 2004 - 06:53 PM

Plasmocat is a co-writer now! yiiiipe!
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#215 -WindWalker-

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 05:04 AM

About whether homosexuality/perversion/sins of the flesh actually exist in the Forgotten Realms. A bit of a dialog I encountered some 4 years ago while playing the game:

...
<KELDORN> One must maintain constant discipline and remember the four principles of virtue...that is my motto and everlasting burden.
<JAN> Virtue, eh knighty?
<KELDORN> Indeed, little one. 'Tis not virtuous to refer to me as 'knighty'.
<JAN> Another human with his shorts in a knot. But I digress. Anyway, Keldy, my mother wrote a book on virtue.
<KELDORN>Did she?
<JAN> Oh, yes. A book on the virtues of erotic love. "Sins of the Flesh Golem", it was called. Excellent sales in the paladin's spouse market.
<KELDORN> A wholly inappropriate jest, Jan. You should be ashamed.
<JAN> It is no jest. I'll send you copy, if your wife does not already have one.
<KELDORN> Never speak of my wife, gnome. Your lack of respect is appalling.
<KELDORN> It is not your place to judge my affairs. You must learn to respect your leaders.
<JAN> I do respect my leaders. This has nothing to do with them. This reminds me of the chapter where the paladin first makes passionate love to the flesh golem. What a beautiful scene...
<KELDORN> Begone, gnome, lest my honor demand I perform acts that you shall regret.
<JAN> 'Fleshy, honey,' the paladin said. 'Yes, baby?' said the golem...
...

From the text above (which is clearly taking place between Keldorn and Jan), I believe it is quite clear there is such a thing such as 'sins of the flesh' even in the Forgotten Realms.
I do not see how homosexuality is different than fetishism (as Jan was clearly mentioning above for the 'paladin' his mother wrote about) or any other perversion. If fetishism (having sex with the flesh golems, generally having sexual pleasure from non-living objects) is appaling for Keldorn, so would be homosexuality and any other perversion. Generally, anything not following the *standard* of a man & woman making family is to be considered corruption for a paladin.

And I'm saying that if it's ok for a paladin to have premarital sex, as in Anomen's case (written by Bioware, btw), and if the creator of the Realms (Greenwood) says that homosexuality isn't considered unnatural or uncommon in the Realms (implying that most gods wouldn't disaprove of it), that it is therefore logical to assume that "permission" to have premarital sex would be extended to paladins of either gender preference.


Anomen is a weird case. For starters, he is not a paladin and never becomes one. He is not even Lawful Good in alignment. Even after he is knighted, he keeps boasting and saying appaling comments for people he doesn't like. Anomen is by no means the exemplar of a paladin behaviour, so it would not be right to say pre-marital sex is allowed in the FR for paladins, just because Anomen did it.


That's basically my point in answer to the complaint about the Dante the paladin being homosexual on the grounds that paladins shouldn't do that kind of thing ... 


perhaps true -- but in all honestly, I don't think there is a pill to choose one's sexuality.

And at the very beginning, Dante's more closer to "What's Sex?" camp.

This is my point about homosexuality. It is most likely in one's nature whether he likes men or women or anything else, but what he does with his body is his choice (not obligated by nature). Having the natural liking for men by no means implies that one should not become a paladin. It's the way he acts, however, that counts.

I hope you realise you are condemning a homosexual paladin in the same way you are with a promiscuous one. Now, if being homosexual makes a paladin go "out of their way" will a heterosexual paladin do the same if he/she has sex with someone of different gender? Or paladins only "go out of their way" when they have sex with people of their same gender?


If that's what you understood out of what I wrote, then I'm afraid anything else I say won't do any good for you. The whole thing is not about the 'who you're sleeping with', it's the fact that you're doing it. Does it make much difference for you, whether the paladin *sleeps* with a man or a woman? It's the fact that if the paladins and the clerics (the exemplars of behaviour in a society) start sleeping with harlots and join massive 'celebrations' of the kind, the peasants are surely about to do much worse things.
And I'm not condemning anyone, I'm trying to point out that a consious paladin would definitely be worried about his homosexual 'deeds'.

#216 Immortality

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 06:04 AM

Does it make much difference for you, whether the paladin *sleeps* with a man or a woman?

No, Sor, it makes a difference FOR YOU, you said it in one of your posts... gee, here, let me help you a little to be consistent:

If you say this:

Perhaps it might be a good idea to even have him excommunicated ( = fallen, but with an anathema) for being a paladin and messing with homosexuality issues.

in one post, you cant come back and tell me it makes a difference TO ME. Cos i think that by now people know it doesnt make it different... it does for you. :)


*Ana's head explodes*
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#217 Lady LeFay

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 07:09 AM

Now, now before you believe Keldorn or Anomen will espouse Dante's feelings, let me clear it up.

Keldorn does NOT approve, and keep trying to 'match up' Dante with a nice girl (not matchmaking, but keeping pointing out the joys of marriage to a nice girl).

Anomen's masculinity is threatened by it when Dante comes out. 'is he going to hit on me?' 'Does this BOY see me as attractive?' 'Will he turn me like this'?

Edited by Lady LeFay, 21 August 2004 - 07:11 AM.

"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#218 -WindWalker-

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 08:04 AM

Does it make much difference for you, whether the paladin *sleeps* with a man or a woman?

No, Sor, it makes a difference FOR YOU, you said it in one of your posts... gee, here, let me help you a little to be consistent:

If you say this:

Perhaps it might be a good idea to even have him excommunicated ( = fallen, but with an anathema) for being a paladin and messing with homosexuality issues.

in one post, you cant come back and tell me it makes a difference TO ME. Cos i think that by now people know it doesnt make it different... it does for you. :)


*Ana's head explodes*

Ana, think of the whole thing again, and please read it slowly. It's not normal for a paladin to have homosexual relationships, is that too difficult to understand? And even if you don't want to understand me saying it, check at the banter I pasted straight from BG2. And what I was trying to point with the

Does it make much difference for you, whether the paladin *sleeps* with a man or a woman?

is that it makes no difference whether the second member of the act is a man, or a golem after all, but instead, it is the act.

Enough said. It is my opinion, and it has tons of arguments to support it. Before we even take the topic to WOTC FR forums, sit down and think of it.

Now, now before you believe Keldorn or Anomen will espouse Dante's feelings, let me clear it up.

Keldorn does NOT approve, and keep trying to 'match up' Dante with a nice girl (not matchmaking, but keeping pointing out the joys of marriage to a nice girl).

Anomen's masculinity is threatened by it when Dante comes out. 'is he going to hit on me?' 'Does this BOY see me as attractive?' 'Will he turn me like this'?


All that matters is the way it is implemented after all. In theory, it is nice to see that the 'righteous' guy of BG2 will try to get him to become straight, and the 'nice guy' of BG2 will feel weird about him. I wish you best of luck turning it into a real mod.

#219 Lady LeFay

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 09:00 AM

And for Dante's all about the chaste courtly love.

Yes at one point he does considering leaving his order (which changes him to a fighter if he's convinced not to stay) -- but that occurs mainly due to the Bodhi Abduction.
"This Rod will be your doom!" -- Kilik.
"Do you know how much that turns me on, Ki?"
"Maxi! I'm trying to be serious here!" -- Maxi and Kilik

When angry, count to four; when very angry, swear. -- Mark Twain

To disagree with three-fourths of the British public is one of the first requisites of sanity.
Oscar Wilde

And alien tears will fill for him Pity's long-broken urn, For his mourners will be outcast men, And outcasts always mourn.

Dante Romancable Mod: 'Tis a courtly love of a different sort

#220 Zandilar

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Posted 21 August 2004 - 03:53 PM

Heya,

About elelmental lovers -- there are genazi you know... they have to come from somewhere.



Genasi are actually decended from Genie - the Dao, Marid, Efreeti, and Djinni. They're elementally based creatures that live in the elemental planes - they are definitely intelligent (more so than most humanoid races), and quite powerful (which is why Genasi get an ECL in 3rd Ed). Genasi are more common around Calimport, since that region was ruled by Djinni and Efreeti ages ago.

Genie are definitely humanoid creatures. :)