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Most 'Redeemable' BG - SoA - ToB villain


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Poll: Of all the series' many villains who do you think has most potential to be redeemed? Obviously I have my preference, but I think we can have a fun discussion on the topic. (82 member(s) have cast votes)

Of all the series' many villains who do you think has most potential to be redeemed? Obviously I have my preference, but I think we can have a fun discussion on the topic.

  1. Sarevok - why he was picked by Bio, he must be the one! (14 votes [17.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.07%

  2. Tazok (I love demihuman villains better) (3 votes [3.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.66%

  3. Angelo (er - no thanks but tastes differ) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. I think redeeming villains is lame (21 votes [25.61%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.61%

  5. Albert (the demon child looking for his doggie Rufie) (3 votes [3.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.66%

  6. Irenicus (16 votes [19.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 19.51%

  7. Bodhi (I simply love undead chicks!) (3 votes [3.66%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.66%

  8. Phaere (the sexy drow gal) (7 votes [8.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.54%

  9. Melissan the Blackheart (1 votes [1.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.22%

  10. One of the Five Siblings of the PC (14 votes [17.07%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.07%

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#21 dorotea

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 04:14 PM

'I think redeeming villains is lame' is in fact
'I think redeeming villains is lame', 'What do you mean by redemption?'



Chuckle - the poll only allows for 10 lines, and I was aiming for more npc choices.
As for 'redeeming' == lame I agree with it myself, but with this second line that you added. I was really really upset with the way ToB handled Sarevok... I fact until I started working on my first mod and Ascension came out I never even saw his epilogue so disturbed I was by the whole 'turn to the good side at my will'
business...

and 'Why is it all spelled correctly?'. That is why it is the majority vote in here.


Tis a mystery! I cannot remember when was it last time when I typed something and did not have to go back and edit my post several times. :D

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#22 jester

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 04:48 PM

Actually I meant that after all the polls by clericsrock people tend to get distracted by the absence of spelling mistakes in polls and give random answers. :)

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#23 -Ashara-

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 04:54 PM

**Domi I never thought Viconia was a villain in the first place - therefore she did not qualify to be in the poll. The fact that her alignment has letter 'E' in it means less to me than her story. (But it is only MHO of course - and I do not insist on it)

Erm, from the point of "representability" of character she makes a bit more familiar figure than Albert and Ruffie. ;) MHO opinion is that a person who burns people alive for infidelity and murders children is a villain. But it's just me.

#24 dorotea

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 05:02 PM

Erm, from the point of "representability" of character she makes a bit more familiar figure than Albert and Ruffie.


Exactly my point! Why is it nobody ever notices the lil brat? Care to write romance for him ? :P But seriously - there are so many plots in BG 1 that ended without being properly explored... I wish there was an 'After the End' mod that would have allowed you to simply go back and find out everything about these small mysterios characters like Albert.

I put Albert in as a representative for this small group of villains nobody seem to remember... :wub:

But in any case - the poll was only a plot device to bring about the discussion. My personal choice is well known.

Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

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#25 -Ashara-

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 05:12 PM

Care to write romance for him ?

No, but if a quest expansion connecting him to a BG1 NPC is suggested it can be implemented...

#26 -Cybersquirt-

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 06:05 PM

Why was not Viconia on the poll?

:huh: Her redemption remains a part of the game.

the poll was only a plot device to bring about the discussion

And just which discussion that would be? Whether or not there should be redemption, or Who is most worthy?

#27 -Ashara-

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 07:48 PM

Why was not Viconia on the poll?

:huh: Her redemption remains a part of the game.

So is Sarevok's. So it is not the reason for disqualification. As Dorotea pointed out the reason for disqualification was that she does not consider Viconia a villain.

#28 Merja

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Posted 18 March 2004 - 09:45 PM

Just in case anybody's a big fan of formal debate and was planning to draw a line across for Dorotea because I failed to respond to this...


Why, Mr Compton, it sounds as if you were thinking of me :lol:

Actually, the discussion about it being the plurality vote isn't terribly interesting to me, since I've long maintained that mods shouldn't be written by democracy. I'd hardly expect or endorse anyone being discouraged from writing a redemption story simply because a large share of players considered it a lame concept.


Aye, good *stands up and applauds* :) I am afraid of vast majorities, vast majorities of humans tend to behave like sheep - collective subconscious and what not, LOL.


As to who would Merja redeem - besides Jonny boy, with works underway - Phaere, probably, not Sarevok since I don't know him that well, ahem...Probably Sendai, but that's just because I like drow lasses, not because I think there is genuine reason for redemption...
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#29 maidros

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 04:09 AM

Now I will be blasted for 'glorifying evil' I bet - all because I did not instantly fall in love with a certain red-haired sorcerer. 

Just in case anybody's a big fan of formal debate and was planning to draw a line across for Dorotea because I failed to respond to this...

Wrong. It's really a shame that you haven't actually paid attention, it could save you some time. We certainly have a similar level of respect for each other's writing, but it's not causal.

Ahlan JC,
It is so nice of you to grace us with your opinion. We are grateful for it.

In the first place, I have never understood how to define 'redemption' at all. I do not understand how a particular person can be characterised 'good', 'neutral' or 'evil'. Certainly, in most cases, you can judge whether an action was 'good', 'evil' or 'neutral' in itself, at least in the short run, but how do you characterise a person that way. It is difficult for me because, it seems to me that most people act from a variety of motivations and the consequences of actions are so complex that few acts can be counted as purely 'good'. Is it 'good' to steal from a rich noble and help a beggar? Is it 'good' to go on a killing rampage slaughtering all thieves and other law breakers, because they may be a threat to law abiding citizens? How can anyone be sure what exactly an 'evil' creature will do in any given situation - it may so chance that an evil creature's own necessities may coincide with the general good in that instance?

As for 'redemption', it think it boils down to a gut level feeling about whether it a particular character is 'redeemable' or not. Myself, I would like to have 'redeemed' Balthazar - he is already 'good', but I would have liked him to give some thought to the 'collateral damage'. In that respect, he was more like the Harpers of SoA - willing to go to any lengths to achieve his goal. Also another candidate for 'redemption', would be 'Sendai' - she is pragmatic and not at all a fanatic.

As for Dorotea's writing, many of us feel it is credible and that is perhaps the most important factor of all when you are writing - to make it look realistic.

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#30 maidros

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 04:18 AM

Actually, the discussion about it being the plurality vote isn't terribly interesting to me, since I've long maintained that mods shouldn't be written by democracy. I'd hardly expect or endorse anyone being discouraged from writing a redemption story simply because a large share of players considered it a lame concept.


Aye, good *stands up and applauds* :) I am afraid of vast majorities, vast majorities of humans tend to behave like sheep - collective subconscious and what not, LOL.


Shalom Merja,
You just said it right. Even Cicero once mentioned that he followed Pompey only because it was human tendency to follow someone - just as oxen follow oxen and sheep sheep. Only a few choose to take a different path.

As to who would Merja redeem - besides Jonny boy, with works underway - Phaere, probably, not Sarevok since I don't know him that well, ahem...Probably Sendai, but that's just because I like drow lasses, not because I think there is genuine reason for redemption...


Hey that is a great idea - to redeem Phaere. It would have been nice and an interesting concept really.
Can we see a story on that?

Sendai is, I think, a sensible creature and it would be nice to have talked her round. Phaere - it is a little more involved than that - since you would have to lure her away from Lolth and Ardulace and Ust-Natha . It would make for a nice challenging story to write a credible Phaere redemption. Maybe there is something to play along the Solaufein angle?
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#31 Sav

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 04:26 AM

Out of all those on the list, I think Bodhi is the most IRREDEEMABLE of the lot, she was evil when she was alive and just as evil in undeath, but the other four of the Five need more character to be considered redeemable, and most of them are evil creatures anyway, a drow, a blue dragon and a fire giant, I suppose you can include the fallen ranger, Illasera, in there too, though just because they are evil by nature does not have to mean they are evil by character, Viconia's a prime example of someone who did unspeakably (she can barely speak of them herself) evil things, but can find redemption in the end.

Heh, maybe Nalia should be in that poll too, she seems to be going on her way to corrupting herself, with her outlook of "I need lots of power to help the poor"

*POOF*
Nalia: Huh? Who are you?
Satan: Oh, I'm just a random red guy with a goatee, goat legs, a tail and horns. Hey I heard you say you need power if you want to help the poor.
Nalia: Yes! I need to have power because no-one will listen to me otherwise..
Satan: Ah, well, take this cloak, it boosts your Charisma by 5!
Nalia: Really? Hey, there aren't any side effects are there?
Satan: (Other than making you unrepentantly evil, no) Nope, no side-effects at all, have fun helping those poor paupers! See you soon! (Yesss in hell you stupid bitch, hahaha)
*POOF*

Edit: I see what you mean maidros about whether something's good/evil/lawful/chaotic, but simply, the answer is - it depends on the scenario.

Oh yes! Good idea about redeeming Phaere, Merja! I'm glad maidros noticed that YOU said it first, unlike me, who didn't say it a load more posts ago! Why does no-one seem to like my ideas, yet when someone else says it it's a good idea? *sigh*
But, yeah, a Phaere redemption would be nice, rather than handing her her own ass on a platter. It'd be hard though, because she is very far gone when you get to her.

To make a GOOD redemption there has to be some 'humanity' in the character anyway, which is why it doesn't seem to work well that the other four of the Five get redeemed, as there's no 'good' qualities in them, though you COULD develop them as you like, since they don't have that much development on them anyway, other than a basic outline, and, apparantly, that worked well with Solaufein.

#32 Seifer

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 05:42 AM

I think Albert. Just to give a non-indepth, non psychological answer

=)

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#33 jester

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 05:57 AM

Isn't Albert in fact a Ogre Mage mimicking a child to get you to do his quest IIRC.

Sendai wouldn't be good after redemption just more reasonable. I can't believe the most powerfull Bhaalspawn in Faerun are all as stupid as Tazok apart from PC and Balth. :(
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#34 -jcompton-

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 07:52 AM

It is so nice of you to grace us with your opinion. We are grateful for it.

No you're not.

As for Dorotea's writing, many of us feel it is credible and that is perhaps the most important factor of all when you are writing - to make it look realistic.


You're certainly on to something with that second part.

#35 dorotea

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 08:15 AM

You're certainly on to something with that second part.




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Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.

Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.


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#36 Kish

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:01 AM

Isn't Albert in fact a Ogre Mage mimicking a child to get you to do his quest IIRC.

No, he goes home to the Nine Hells if you bring Albert back, and if you attack him he proves far tougher than any of the ogre mages in either game--he's a baatezu.

I agree that Viconia doesn't count as a villain, as she's on the PC's side--just as I would call Sarevok in BG1 a villain, but not Sarevok in ToB.
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#37 -Ashara-

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:15 AM

I agree that Viconia doesn't count as a villain, as she's on the PC's side--

Erm, if you go with the villain necesseraly being an adversary of PC then the redemption within the game plot is impossible, because you have to have a person in the group in order to conduct a serie of soul-searching conversations with him/her...unless you'd do it as a "home call" redemption, when PC visits the villain at his magnificent palace from time to time, to bestow his/her infinite mercy and wisdom...

The character does not stop being evil simply because s/he is collaborating with PC. PC him/herself can be an evil and corrupting influence.

@Maidros: erm, sorry, but there are things that are inherently evil and not related to property laws. Raping a young girl, then cutting her while she is still alive into small pieces while her mother is forced to watch is evil; torturing a human being is evil, and yes, killing those who steal material goods or purposedly mutilating them is evil;

#38 maidros

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:47 AM

Edit: I see what you mean maidros about whether something's good/evil/lawful/chaotic, but simply, the answer is - it depends on the scenario.


Absolutely true. Therefore, can we make general judgements about whether a man/woman is good or evil? 'Sin is geographical' as Blaise Pascal once said. That is why I am wary of the alignments - at best it is a guide, an insight into the person's likely line of reasoning (or lack of it), but it is very very difficult to categorise persons absolutely.

Oh yes! Good idea about redeeming Phaere, Merja! I'm glad maidros noticed that YOU said it first, unlike me, who didn't say it a load more posts ago! Why does no-one seem to like my ideas, yet when someone else says it it's a good idea? *sigh*


If you read my post carefully, you will find that at no point of time have I ascribed the Phaere redemption idea to Merja. I merely applauded the idea of redeeming Phaere - it is just another approach into working out things differently. I am sorry that it gave you the impression that I was crediting Merja with the idea. I assure you that I was not.

But, yeah, a Phaere redemption would be nice, rather than handing her her own ass on a platter. It'd be hard though, because she is very far gone when you get to her.


True - anyone who writes will have their hands full - it is not an easy thing to write a believable redemption of Phaere - especially when she is on the rise, as she is in Ust Natha. If, on the other hand, in some fashion, her House fell from power and she were to lose the favour of Lolth, it might make for an interesting theme to develop. A drow, who has been brought up on the idea that power is everything, is unlikely to throw away power and become a convert to an idealistic PC's thinking and beliefs unless there is a compelling reason to do so.

To make a GOOD redemption there has to be some 'humanity' in the character anyway, which is why it doesn't seem to work well that the other four of the Five get redeemed, as there's no 'good' qualities in them, though you COULD develop them as you like, since they don't have that much development on them anyway, other than a basic outline, and, apparantly, that worked well with Solaufein.


Hmm. I am not so sure about that. One of them is a dragon, one a drow, one a fire giant - the societies of these creatures are traditionally ones that encourage cruelty, lust, greed etc and having been raised in these they have had very little exposure to the better things of life. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that their outlooks would change over time, if they were in better societies. To take an example from Bioware itself, it is very difficult to see the original Viconia, the priestess of Lolth change into a better creature. Even after she fled to the surface, she is a priestess of Shar, and Shar is hardly any better than Lolth. However, change she does, in the PC's company and it is not, therefore, beyond the bounds of reason that one or more of the Five would change. But the redemption, if at all there is one, is not easy to write and would take a lot of work.

On a final note, Illasera is an archer - by BG's own terms, that means that she is a ranger and rangers in 2E have to start 'good'. Does this mean she started out as good and then became 'fallen' somehow? That gives another angle to write Illasera redemption.

The most difficult to write, in my opinion, would be Gromnir - unless you take the line that he went mad with the continual persecution by Yaga Shura and other Bhaalspawn and became totally cruel and paranoid. But is the 'redemption' of a madman any easier to write?

Wealth I seek not hope nor love,
Nor a friend to know me,
All I ask the heaven above
And my work before me.


#39 maidros

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 09:50 AM

No you're not.


Sighs at the skepticism.

You're certainly on to something with that second part.


Your imagination is certainly working overtime. I assure that all I meant is that I find Dorotea's writing and plots credible.

Wealth I seek not hope nor love,
Nor a friend to know me,
All I ask the heaven above
And my work before me.


#40 jester

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Posted 19 March 2004 - 10:01 AM

I think a very interesting good/evil tangent is the so called 'greater good'.

Let's asume for this that there is no priestess to harness the essence of Bhaal for herself. A paladin stumbles upon a temple full of children. All of them are the offsprings of Bhaal. An obvious choice would be to kill all of them to purge the evil essence once and for all. Another would be to take one (or all) of them and try to guide them to oppose what they are seemingly destined to become. If it is just circumstances and causation then life is merely a reenactment of a predefined plan. If, on the other hand, you stress free will and the option of having second thoughts about things despite your suroundings than 'redemption' is a feasible option for everybody. I am prepared to concede that the word redemption is limited in one direction. BTW Sav's comment on Nalia :D

I must add that I never subscribed to the implied concept of good/evil being a natural ranking. Edwin might just be a pessimist who describes himself as being realistic in a cruel world (he is LE IIRC). Minsc would say it is a matter of sufficient booting, Jan wouldn't care, but know a related story and Edwin would simply adapt.

My view on 'redemption' would be giving them the chance for second thoughts about their approach. I am very sorry that in BG, unlike in a good Hitchcock film where the viewer gets hints of things to come, but cannot act accordingly, Abaz. and Sendai don't know anything about recent developments and behave like actors who have just rehearsed their particular scene. I wonder how they got to get there in the first place.

@ Phaere
Unlike Sola who has always been a poet in a sheepskin, Phaere could be more resilient to redemption. Especially when her former lover is in the party. Could be an interesting addition. :)

EDIT: @Maidros: great thoughts I would subscribe to most of them :) matter of crossposting somewhat, sorry.

Edited by jester, 19 March 2004 - 10:05 AM.

"It's 106 miles to Arroyo, we got a full fusion cell, half a pack of RadAway, it's midnight, and I'm wearing a 50-year old Vault 13 Jumpsuit. Let's hit it!" -The Chosen One

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