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Imoen Romance - Lessons Learned


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#21 -Cybersquirt-

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Posted 08 May 2004 - 04:55 AM

^ this occurs as her way of coping with the torture, right?

It's one of, if not the most compelling reasons to romance her in general, and the Imoen romance relies heavily on it. Through the romance you try and help her work through it (the torture, etc). In real life, or another mod, it could be any type of intimate, even non-sexual, love.

as you point out, Sisko, you really have to grill her to get it out of her - and she says she's embarassed, or ashamed of it. It's not quite the come here/go away another poster describes. ... :x

Edited by Cybersquirt, 08 May 2004 - 05:00 AM.


#22 -Guest-

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Posted 21 May 2004 - 10:29 PM

Good things:
Greeting/meeting everyone after rejoining party in spellhold (with two versions for Edwin/a(though in your version she might have already lost it by the time Edwina could be around)
Comments on your stronghold. Though my main issue with this is sometimes I would get my stronghold after I picked her up She'd act like she completely missed out on the quests to get it. (With your mod people are even more likely to do this, so I'm not worried about you missing the possibility. Maybe expand it so if she's there, she'd have a few interjections on the various stronghold paths.)
Checking on you. (Though from what I've read from your past posts, you already plan on this not being a normal BIO one sided relationship. Good.)
The ability to bring up being worried/exstatic about the slayer and the dreams, and compare notes on being soulless.

#23 Feanor

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Posted 22 May 2004 - 12:04 AM

Hi, Quitch ! I want to call your attention upon a mistake which Lord M did. After you save Imoen, she tells you about how he was tortured by Irenicus. During one dialogue, she says Irenicus ordered a dwarf to rape her to unleash the Slayer Change (she does not tell you that openly, but she says she was raped, she lost her conscience and when she awoke she saw the dwarf hacked to pieces). But the Slayer shapechange is obviously a surprise for Irenicus : the purpose of his tortures is to test Bhaalspawn capabilities. When Bodhi sees Player turned into the Slayer, she says "Away. Irenicus must know of this". That would have been hard to believe if Imoen already changed to Slayer form in Irenicus Prison from Spellhold.

#24 -Tengu-

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 05:27 AM

The surprise is that the PC shoyldn't be able to manifest any bhaalpowers after losing his soul. ( After the success with Bohdi, Jon was too chasty and apparently messed something up during the extraction)

#25 Erephine

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Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:07 AM

Not at all. The absence of the PC's soul enables the Bhaal essence to take control of (nearly) the whole mind, not just the small portion that it could before.

Edited by Lightspeed, 05 August 2004 - 10:07 AM.

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#26 -Tengu-

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 05:03 AM

Since the PC loses all his "old" bhaalspawn powers, I assumed that Irenicus took some of his power as well. Of course the loss of powers may be the result of the PC losing his soul and so the ability to control them but since Irenicus is obsessed with power and took "The very thing that made the PC special" I assumed that he drained as much bhaalpower as he thought he safely could.

As he didn't experiment on the PC as much as on Imoen, I thought he could have done something wrong and leave the PC some of his power (he probably didn't expect the PC to have SO much of the taint, since Imoen was much weaker.)

#27 Erephine

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 06:58 AM

I dont think so.

Irenicus tried to drain no Bhaal powers at all. The character loses the innate abilities, because they were obviously Bhall powers, but channeled and controlled by the PC's soul. How else would you expect Bhaal to grant you powers like "Cure light wounds" :lol:

With the PC's soul gone, Bhaal can take up most of the PC's mind - thus it will be a lot more difficult for the PC to resist or control the powers - ultimately leading to turning into the Slayer. What Irenicus did, is to underestimate the will power of the PC, the ability to temporarily even control the full scale of Bhaal influence on her/his mind.

With "the very thing that made the PC special" obviously ONLY the PC's own soul is meant - the Bhaal taint is nothing making you special, as can be seen in ToB there's hundreds of people who have it.

Now you may ask, "why did Irenicus want Bhaal's children then" - it's only logical. Ever since the very start of BG1, Bhaal has tried to get posession of your body - and if you want to remove someone's soul, who better could you choose than someone who ALREADY does have problems with it? Or, to say it this way: It's much easier to pull something out, when someone else is pushing from the other side.

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#28 -Tengu-

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Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:53 AM

1 Irenicus is trying to become a god and I seriously doubt that he would miss any oportunity to make himself stronger .And there still is a question of him turning into the Slayer in hell. From what he sais, he and the pc were put through similar tests , they didn't absorb any new bhaalpower. (Melissan was gathering it and Bhaal certainly didn,t leave any in hell for his children, they were all meant to die. The abilities that the PC gains come from the development of his own power)

2 About removing soul, I think you are wrong. Irenicus must have needed a special one if he bothered so much, because removal of the soul isn't that complicated at all. (Something as "common" as Finger of Death ripps the soul from the body, though it was a bit too crude a tool for his needs.)

#29 -Andrew-

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Posted 15 August 2004 - 02:52 PM

I would agree about the timing of Imoen turning into the slayer at Spellhold and that it wouldn't make sense. It depends what Lord M. does in TOB romance but origionally Imoen turned into the slayer at the end of TOB for the first time and if Imoen turned into the slayer in Spellhold, Bodhi most likely would not have said "Child of Bhaal...what have you become?"...of course Irenicus may not have told her what happened to Imoen but that would be pure speculation.

#30 Drasius

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 06:07 PM

...but origionally Imoen turned into the slayer at the end of TOB for the first time...

That is only with Ascension IIRC.

#31 Ismail

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Posted 17 September 2004 - 04:27 AM

actually, Irenicus sent the duergar just to torment her, and probably didn't stick around to watch. So he might have missed the change, and his underlings might not have reported the dead duergar to him. *shrug* it's a possibility, anyway. And I sure didn't gather from the dialogues that Irenicus sent the duergar to bring out the Slayer. I mean, he had a lot less crude tools of torture for that.
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#32 -Brain on the web-

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 12:45 PM

1 Music. There must be.

2 ToB part. The lack of it (I think it is in making but haven't seen it to date) is the IR most obvious weak point

#33 Stone Wolf

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 12:50 PM

The ToB portion is still being worked on. The Imoen Romance website is:

www.imoen.org

No forum though.

Edited by Stone Wolf, 24 September 2004 - 12:51 PM.


#34 AG3

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 06:59 PM

As a long-time great fan of the Imoen Romance I might be biased, but I'll list a few pointers of the IMO good and bad points of it (spoilers, of course, some very big ones) :

Good:

If you aren't romancing Aerie, Imoen becomes a close friend of her. Basically, the absence of you making Aerie stronger by helping her means Imoen does it instead, and makes a special friend in the process (so Imoen has others than just you to rely on). The bond between them is pretty interesting, and the interactions between them were entertaining. It was also interesting that in many cases where your behaviour made Imoen abandon your party (usually in either rage or sorrow), Aerie would leave too and go with her.


Despite what a lot of people seem to think, Imoen doesn't "throw herself" at you the minute you pick her up from Spellhold. She will slowly (over several dialogues) start talking about what was done to her, and in between that you have to force-talk her and tell her that you had dreams of her, then pressure her to tell you about whether or not she had something similar of you. She will (regardless of your forcetalk) eventually tell you what was done to her by Irenicus, and later on, when you exit the Underdark, you can end up sleeping with her, if you do it "right". Afterwards she will be ashamed of what you two did because you are siblings (the whole incest issue) and refuse to talk to you until you get her soul back from Bodhi. At that point, you have the opportunity to talk to her privately about your problems, and it is here you have to convince her that you being "siblings" doesn't matter.

The dialogue that ensues is one of the romance's finer points, I think (but again, I could be biased). It is very in-depth, and there are several ways it can go right or wrong. You can badger Imoen, then turn it either into how your own feelings have been trampled by her in order to gain her sympathy before taking your argument further, or you could simply verbally abuse her with it. You can also try to take the whole "we're not genetically siblings, just the taint and/or childhood friends type of siblings" argument. Or try to convince her that it doesn't matter, which she will disagree on, at least initially. Or you could just say that you love her, which is a pretty bad idea if you're looking for a steady romance.

This is all simplified for brevity.



Imoen reacts to certain conditions you meet. For instance having the Robe of Vecna, a Girdle of Giant Strenght or the Ring of Gaxx in your inventory. Also, she has banters for the different keeps (and a special event for the Druid Grove), she reacts to the amount of money you have (at 30k, 60k and 120k). It's a nice flavoring.


Being age 25, I can't say that the more graphic descriptions in the Mod bothers me any. Not any more than some of Jason Compton's flirt-pack descriptions do. If you do take offense at softcore descriptions, you're probably what Imoen calls a "stick-in-the-mud". 99% of the romance "action" has to be started by you, by force-talking Imoen, so the arguments that the romance is some kind of sex-orgy is bull. You can do as much or as little as you like, which I don't find any more disturbing than my obsession of bathing with Jaheira/Aerie in the Flirt Packs ^_^ .


Another point a lot of critics make is the fact that you can be violent towards Imoen. How is this any worse than what you do outside dialogues (like using Wish to Abi-Dalzim women, children and everything else in an entire area)? Yes, you can be violent. In some cases, you can use the dialogues that ensue to RP that it was the Bhaal taint that caused it, other times you'll just piss ofspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netf Imoen (sometimes she'll kill you, if what you did/tried to do was bad enough). Usually, you'll experience alignment change if you get out of line.

Personally, I think the Evil and Chaotic replies are almost a necessity, even though I never use them. The reason for this is that it gives you a choice, and the fact that you can be very evil gives all the good replies that much more meaning. If you could do only good (and "normal") things, what would be the point of being allowed to choose a reply at all? If you want the romance to proceed you'll have no choice but to be nice to Imoen, but at least you're given a choice. Besides, take the Bioware romances as an example: You can tell Aerie in just about every single LoveTalk that she's a whiny bitch, despite the fact that it will terminate the romance. You can similarly be "not nice" to the other romances at every step. Why should Imoen be immune to abuse from evil/chaotic characters? And the fact that her romance happens while you have no soul and are struggling to keep the taint under control, makes the evil/violent choices all the more likely, and IMO meaningful.

In a way, you could say that the wildly different dialogue choices mirror the internal struggle you face after having your soul ripped from you. The Bhaal taint is struggling to gain control over you, and whether it does or not depends on your ability ignore the "voices" that tells you to rip Imoens heart out, and instead kiss her.


I personally find her romance to be very sweet, kind of akin to what the Flirt Packs do for the Bioware romances.


If you force talk Imoen when you (or her) are wounded, she will react depending on how serious the wound is. It's kinda amusing to say "I'm...*cough* I'm fine... *cough*" and then having Imoen react to you coughing up blood. :D


Bad:

I tend to disagree with Lord M's choice of words when it comes to Imoen's dialogues. For one, I think that Imoen's swearing when she get's royally PO'ed is a bit out of character, but as Bioware never put her in a position where she REALLY looses her temper, it's a bit hard to say how she would react in such a situation. In the end, I guess it's up to the artist to decide how Imoen should respond to such.


The mod itself was expanded and improved over many months, and a lot of patches were released. The content you get now is far better and more comprehensive than the initial versions were. The problem is that this "modular" building has left out a few situations where it seems extremely odd that Imoen doesn't say anything, like when you turn into the slayer and try to kill your romance when resting after the Bodhi fight in Spellhold. Of course, if we ever want to see the ToB part finished, constantly adding stuff to the SoA part has to stop.


It can sometimes be difficult to gauge the seriousness of the replies you give. Due to the fact that Lord M seems to like including "chaotic neutral" replies (some of them are pretty funny), almost Jan style, you never quite know whether your character will just be joking if you choose that reply, or if it's a "serious" Chaotic/Neutral answer that could impact the romance and/or your alignment. Of course, you could just NOT pick such a reply, but why should chaotic neutrals have all the fun? :lol:

Edited by AG3, 24 September 2004 - 08:05 PM.


#35 -Guest-

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 12:43 PM

While we are talking about Imoen Romance, has anyone seen a walktrough? I searched everywhere but can't find any.

#36 Ismail

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:30 PM

While we are talking about Imoen Romance, has anyone seen a walktrough? I searched everywhere but can't find any.

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I think it dropped dead along with the teambg forums...

But as for AG3's post, I agree with most of the stuff. As a bad side, I'd add the whole Aerie/Imoen scene, where they steal your stuff. Okay, that might happen to your rambling, itinerant mage or your big, stumbling barbarian who both have a DEX of 8, but a 19-DEX elven thief/mage not noticing her stuff (which is well over 150 pounds worth of weapons, armour etc) being stolen is just pretty darn unlikely. It really SHOULD use some checks to give you the option of noticing the theft. For ex, three reactions: 1) go as it goes now 2) Let Aerie talk and then ask "Or maybe it's just Imoen stealing my stuff?" which would strike them quiet or 3) turn around and grab Imoen's wrist and then have some dialogue options from slapping her to turning the joke back on her or whatever. I'm really not Lord M to decide it.

Another good side of it is the part where Immy asks you "How're you doing?" (or somesuch). The others never do. Not bloody ever. Also, I like it how she wants you to introduce her to your new companions, as well as greeting the old ones.
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#37 Stone Wolf

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Posted 13 November 2004 - 01:45 PM

While we are talking about Imoen Romance, has anyone seen a walktrough? I searched everywhere but can't find any.

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Try this: http://www.shsforums...topic=10797&hl=

It isn't a full walkthrough, but you should be able to make it through the romance if you're careful. :)

#38 LarryTheArcher

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 06:01 PM

First, let me say for those who suffer from confusion that this is the forum for the Imoen Relationship, an entirely different mod than the Imoen Romance which is hosted over at TeamBG.

Now, since my mod will not operate alongside the mod of Lord M (at least, I have no intention of trying to make it so) then it seems people will need to choose between the two.  While the fact that his has been out for a while and mine will be out long after means that people will likely be in a position where they have tried his and now want to try mine, it seems important still that I consider that this one needs to correct the mistakes his made so as to win people over.

To this end, I ask those of you who have played the Imoen romance, where did it go right, and where did it go wrong?  What elements of that mod would you like to see in this mod (considering the different goals of the two), and which would you rather seen burned at the stake?

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Speaking of Imoen Romance mod... anyone know a download mirror location since TBG went down?
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Irenicus: (It came with the soul...)

#39 Stone Wolf

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Posted 14 November 2004 - 06:22 PM

http://www.imoen.org/

http://iegmc.mirror....a.com.sg/imoen/

:)

#40 -Guest_Solar_*-

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Posted 15 November 2004 - 09:23 AM

The Good:

The first Imoen dream. Very touching, and makes you care a lot more about Imoen.

Imoen's banters. Helps relieve the tension (tedium?) of questing and endears her to you. Particularly good are banters about your strongholds and "small talks".

The music. Very good at times, and only rarely does it feel somewhat jarring.



The Not-So-Good:

Quite a few grammar errors. Some editing need to be done.

The camp scene with Imoen playing a guitar. Feels too contrived as it is. Perhaps it could be done better. I don't have a problem with Imoen playing an instrument, but the scene just felt too artificial.

The ending. Too short. Perhaps there will be more in ToB, but as it is right now, the ending is unsatisfactory, leaving you wanting more.

Why does an NPC relationship mod have to end anyway? Yes, you run out of dialogues eventually, but it should be paced to end *with the game*, not hours of gameplay before.



The Ugly:

Imoen dropping swear words. It just seems so jarring and out of place in the text. Characters in BG2 *never* use words like "shit", and I don't see why Imoen should. If she needs to swear, keep it to the FR swear words. Otherwise, it just feels out of place.