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#1 Rathwellin the Bard

Rathwellin the Bard

    Bloody engine of destruction ... oh, wait. That was my Sorcerer

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 11:51 AM

I?ve been testing and messing around with Refinements changes for a while now. One of the areas I?ve focused heavily on has been Sorcerers. There are several reasons for this but the most important is the simple fact that more than any other class Sorcerers have been changed. Monks are getting close now & there is a nice little discussion about them going on elsewhere so I thought that I would start a thread about Sorcerers here.

On a very general level Refinements has taken away all 10th level mage spells from Sorcerers and replaced them with a new selection of innates. I?ll discuss some of my thoughts on specific changes in a minute, but I just wanted to note for the record that, at first, I was very much against this change. Over time, and with testing, I?ve actually come to like it. It *is* nice to see Sorcerers differentiated from mages more. I?ve come to really like some of the new innates, but most of all I?ve come to like the approach.

I think that this change is going to be one of the biggest hurdles most folks who like to play Sorcerers are going to face. They will either love it or hate it. Personally I suspect that many will come to like it.

OK, with that said let?s look at what Sorcerers loose.

Comet ? the second best mass attack spell in the game. This is a part friendly mass damage spell that?s only inferior to Dragon?s Breath because it doesn?t ignore magic resistance. It?s also disappointing in that it does the same kind of elemental damage as DB. I?ve seen mods that change the damage to crushing and ice. Too bad the original wasn?t that way ... it would have been more useful.

Dragon?s Breath ? the first best mass attack spell in the game. This party friendly spell does loads of fire damage and ignores MR. It?s only limited in that many foes have high innate fire resistance. This spell is great for clearing out large masses of foes & is useful even when it doesn?t do damage since it blows foes away from the blast area. In an unmodified game this is probably the single most used 10th level spell for a Sorcerer.

Energy Blades ? A good spell that I?ve personally not ever used to best effect. It?s fantastic for making Sorcerers a bit more useful in combat.

Improved Alacrity ? The second most used 10th level spell in an unmodified game. Basically lets the Sorcerer dump a lot of spells in a short time. Works fantastic with Timestop. TS + IA + 3x Dragon?s Breath and a lot of other damage spells is pretty abusive and, from what I?ve gathered is one of the reasons that Refinements alters Sorcerers.

Summon (Dark) Planetar - *The* best summons in the game. Period.

Additional Spells ? Gets an extra casting of 6th, 7th, and then 8th level spells. Useful for the Sorcerer but not nearly as good a pick as they are for mages.

So, in summary what they loose are: the best two attack spells in the game, the best summoning spell in the game, IA (huge in and of itself), and a number of other highly useful but not overly important picks.

What they get in return in Refinements:

Energy Storm ? A mass attack innate that is built to be something like a last strike. So far in testing I?ve found this ability to be less useful than expected in combat when it actually gets used ... and of course it has massive side effects. I have a thread elsewhere on ways I?ve experimented cheesing this innate, but the bottom line is that a number of spells the Sorcerer already has access to seem better in terms of damage (Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Storm, etc.) and don?t have the side effects to boot. This is an ability that I just don?t see ever using in game unless you plan to cheese it in advance.

Aura Cleansing ? This is something like an IA replacement. In some ways it?s a lot weaker than IA, but, when combined with the Casting Speed Increase HLA picks the Sorcerer now gets and the usual speed increase items like the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power this new innate really comes into it?s own. I personally like it a lot.

Resist Magic ? An OK innate. Thematically it is very appropriate for the Sorcerer but it?s not very powerful in and of itself.

Channel Magic ? this is the ?big brother? to the Magic Resistance HLA. Like many of the other ?metamagic? innates this seems to fit the Sorcerer well. This ability basically creates a variant of the 9th level Spell Trap arcane spell. Channel Magic gives a bit more coverage but the price is pretty high. Not being able to cast spells is always hard on a Sorcerer. I actually kind of like this innate but the duration is just way too short. At a minimum this sucker should last three rounds if not more. I can only think of *one* situation in *one* mod where anyone would ever need to absorb more than 30 levels of spells in two rounds (this being one of the major differences between Spell Trap and Channel Magic). In an ideal world the Sorcerer could pop this up and then turn it off when they wanted to (like shapeshifting back to human form), but even without that just bumping up the static duration would take this innate from an interesting curiosity to something that is very useful.

Auqa Mortis ? The first of the new ?elementalist? like innates. This one is pretty good as it causes acid backlash to foes who attack the Sorcerer. Unlike some of the other picks this one is party friendly. This is the only one of the 4 innates that doesn?t either add to weapon damage or give magical ?weapons? to the Sorcerer.

Idol of Frost ? This is the most powerful of the ?elementalist? innates. While it is not party friendly (and can easily make summons go hostile), this innate causes cold damage, slows, and can even cause nearby creatures to save vs. death of freeze! It?s also good in that it adds to weapon damage rather. Resistance to Cold also isn?t as common as resistance to fire.

Scion of Storms ? This is the electrical ?elementalist? innate. It?s somewhat similar to Auqu Mortis in that it doesn?t have a damage radius. Instead this one causes electrical damage and potentially stuns attackers. It also adds a bit to weapon damage.

Spirit of Flames ? Similar to Idol of Frost in that it causes damage in a radius around the Sorcerer while active, however it doesn?t add useful stuff like slow or save vs death. The flame does make the Sorcerer partially ethereal though and thus immune to normal weapons. In addition to all that this innate replaces the Sorcerer?s hands with ?Flaming Fists? (ah the BGI irony) that have additional attacks per round. When combined with Stoneskin or Protection from Magical Weapons and Tensor?s Transformation this innate can actually make the Sorcerer a reasonable melee opponent.

Spell Restoration ? Kind of like the cleric spell, Wondrous Recall, this a useful ability that has a side effect of making the Sorcerer helpless for a short time after use. This side effect can actually be put to the Sorcerer?s advantage. It is a very safe way to kick off Contingencies that are triggered to go off when the caster is helpless.

Shatter Magic ? If your party?s ever been on the receiving end of one of these you already know just how not fun it is. Now you can use it yourself and have a bit of an easier time against foes that use a lot of magic protections. This innate is party friendly and means that the Sorcerer can skip Spellstrike if he wishes to, freeing up a 9th level spell slot.

Spell Casting Speed Increase ? You can pick this 3 times. It?s awesome! Faster spellcasting is always a good thing. With this innate you can give your Sorcerer the Amulet of Power and your Mage the Robe of Vecna and have two fast spellcasters in your party ... or you can give both to your Sorcerer and watch him cast Horrid Wiltings with a casting time of 1. With Aura Cleansing it?s incredible.

Casting by Intent ? Anything that make my casters worry less about spell casting failure is a good thing in my book. Don?t underestimate this innate.

Inner Focus ? Adds 1 to Cha and saves. This passive innate isn?t so much in and of itself, but it?s a pre-requisite for several of the more powerful new HLAs.

So in summary what Sorcerers gain is: the ability to become the fastest spellcasters in the game, some very nice ?metamagical? abilities, and some ?use with care? elementalist and damaging innates.

The good:

I really like Aura Cleansing, Shatter Magic, Spell Casting Speed Increase, and Casting by Intent. These are unique HLAs and really add to the Sorcerer in a nice way. I can?t stress enough how much I like these changes.

Using Aura Cleansing for instance has been a blast. I just love the huge ?swarm? of spells it creates. I also find it very nice to be able to toss of spells as the party is fighting rather than be forced into a Timestop to get the old Timestop + IA effect of spellbook dumping. You can use Aura Cleansing in a Timestop if you want to ... but with Casting by Intent and the raw speed you don?t have to. That?s a good thing. I like my party to be useful.

These abilities alone are enough to overcome a lot of the less good stuff I mention below.

I?ve also really come to like using innates. It was a big change for me and was philosophically very different that how I was used to thinking about Sorcerers, but now I wouldn?t want to play any other way.

It's also fun to be able to keep on picking new HLAs way beyond when the old ones ran out. This is actually a huge plus IMO. Few things suck more in ToB that watching some characters get new HLAs while others don't.

The bad:

Casting spells faster and with less interruption is good, but nothing was done to really replace what the Sorcerers lost. In the end it doesn?t matter if you can cast faster if you don?t have good things to cast. Pre-Refinemetns you could feel free to take more role-playing based spell picks knowing that Dragons Breath, IA, and the others would be there at high levels. With refinements you really can?t do that as easily.

Without the 10th level spells hogging all the usage I thought that I would get more mileage out of my 9th level spells ... but that was before I saw how sucky Meteor Swarm, Black Bade of Disaster, and most of the other 9th level spells are. I think that a ?spells? Refinements or add-on is needed before the Sorcerer really can compensate at all for what he lost in terms of being able to dish out damage or summons. What not having 10th level spells leads to is lots of Timestops, Wishes, and Chain Contingencies.

This actually leads to two bad things.

The first is Chain Contingency cheese. I never used this much when I had a Sorcerer with IA, but now, with only one Aura Cleansing per day I find myself using it more and more to pump out 3 damaging spells super quickly.

The second is even worse. Without Dragon?s Breath or IA to eat up spells & make things go faster, I find my Sorcerer using Timestop over, and over, and over. In the end the Sorcerer gets the same effect as old Timestop + IA + a bunch of spells by casting Timestop + 2 spells + Timestop + 2 spells + Timestop + 2 spells + Timestop + 2 spells + Timestop + 2 spells + Timestop + 2 spells ... it?s just that it takes him a *lot* longer to do so. In effect this change is not gameplay friendly. Aura Cleansing helps ... but not enough IMO.

The Ugly:

I?m sorry. I?ve tried to like the elementalist effects but I just don?t. Unless you are planning on be a fire focused Sorcerer there just aren?t enough spells at each level to really build a theme around. I tried to make an ?ice? Sorcerer or an ?Acid/Poison? Sorcerer and just didn?t have enough spells with appropriate effects to make it look right. On top of that some of these innates are really hard to use.

The bottom line for me that the Sorcerer as an elementalist just doesn?t work for me either role playing wise or in terms of what I can actually do in terms of spell picks.

I?m not a fan of Energy Storm either. I?ve said it before but might as well do it again; This is a really cool idea on paper but it just doesn?t fit into a real game. If your PC is a Sorcerer this ability is just too dangerous to use without cheese.

Energy Storm is also a terrible reminder of what the Sorcerer?s have lost in Dragon?s Breath. Every time I use it I am reminded of exactly what I used to be able to do. Dragon?s breath was great for clearing out groups and the Sorcerer just can?t do it anymore in ToB. While this may be good for the boss battles it is a pain in the tail in terms of the nickel and dime battles which is where I used DB the most anyway. The fact that *none* of the new HLAs but this one do large scale combat damage is a downer. What I would wish for more than any Energy Storm or ?elementalist? type transformation is a simple damage causing HLA without all the fluff these others have.

The loss of a summons is also terrible. I?m beginning to think that the ?Conjure Magic Golem? you gave Conjurers might have been better used here. It fits in nicely with Spellstrike and the other ?metamagic? powers the Sorcerer has and would really set them apart from the mages who summon Planetars instead. Yes moving this would leave a hole in Conjurers ... but even if you don?t move it IMO Sorcerers need a summoning HLA that is unique to them among mages.

#2 Caedwyr

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 12:34 PM

Nice analysis, and almost identical to my feelings on the changes. I'm not so worried about the loss of the Planetar summoning, but I can't get to like the elemental affinity abilities or find a way to use Energy storm in a non-cheesy manner. The elemental affinity abilities just don't seem to fit the sorcerer. They'd be more appropriate on a elementalist mage kit.
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#3 Jinnai

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 01:05 PM

What they get in return in Refinements:

Energy Storm ? A mass attack innate that is built to be something like a last strike. So far in testing I?ve found this ability to be less useful than expected in combat when it actually gets used ... and of course it has massive side effects. I have a thread elsewhere on ways I?ve experimented cheesing this innate, but the bottom line is that a number of spells the Sorcerer already has access to seem better in terms of damage (Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, Meteor Storm, etc.) and don?t have the side effects to boot. This is an ability that I just don?t see ever using in game unless you plan to cheese it in advance.

Well i think Energy Storm was meant to be a cheese in adavnce ability, atleast compared to the others.

Aura Cleansing ? This is something like an IA replacement.  In some ways it?s a lot weaker than IA, but, when combined with the Casting Speed Increase HLA picks the Sorcerer now gets and the usual speed increase items like the Robe of Vecna and the Amulet of Power this new innate really comes into it?s own.  I personally like it a lot.

Agree, excpt i don't agree the abilities should stack with the items.

Resist Magic ? An OK innate.  Thematically it is very appropriate for the Sorcerer but it?s not very powerful in and of itself.

Well not all HLA should be uber though.

Auqa Mortis ? The first of the new ?elementalist? like innates.  This one is pretty good as it causes acid backlash to foes who attack the Sorcerer.  Unlike some of the other picks this one is party friendly.  This is the only one of the 4 innates that doesn?t either add to weapon damage or give magical ?weapons? to the Sorcerer.

Nothing to add.

Idol of Frost ? This is the most powerful of the ?elementalist? innates.  While it is not party friendly (and can easily make summons go hostile), this innate causes cold damage, slows, and can even cause nearby creatures to save vs. death of freeze!  It?s also good in that it adds to weapon damage rather.  Resistance to Cold also isn?t as common as resistance to fire.

Nothing to add again.

Scion of Storms ? This is the electrical ?elementalist? innate.  It?s somewhat similar to Auqu Mortis in that it doesn?t have a damage radius.  Instead this one causes electrical damage and potentially stuns attackers.  It also adds a bit to weapon damage.

Again, nothing to add.

Spirit of Flames ? Similar to Idol of Frost in that it causes damage in a radius around the Sorcerer while active, however it doesn?t add useful stuff like slow or save vs death.  The flame does make the Sorcerer partially ethereal though and thus immune to normal weapons.  In addition to all that this innate replaces the Sorcerer?s hands with ?Flaming Fists? (ah the BGI irony) that have additional attacks per round.  When combined with Stoneskin or Protection from Magical Weapons and Tensor?s Transformation this innate can actually make the Sorcerer a reasonable melee opponent.

Well, once again, nothing to add.

Spell Restoration ? Kind of like the cleric spell, Wondrous Recall, this a useful ability that has a side effect of making the Sorcerer helpless for a short time after use.  This side effect can actually be put to the Sorcerer?s advantage.  It is a very safe way to kick off Contingencies that are triggered to go off when the caster is helpless.

I kinda like this. I like the way it makes turning a weakness to an advantage (rather than just ignoring them).

Shatter Magic ? If your party?s ever been on the receiving end of one of these you already know just how not fun it is.  Now you can use it yourself and have a bit of an easier time against foes that use a lot of magic protections.  This innate is party friendly and means that the Sorcerer can skip Spellstrike if he wishes to, freeing up a 9th level spell slot.

This is one of the few exceptions i have to not making spells party-friendly. In this case i think its appropriate.

Spell Casting Speed Increase ? You can pick this 3 times.  It?s awesome!  Faster spellcasting is always a good thing.  With this innate you can give your Sorcerer the Amulet of Power and your Mage the Robe of Vecna and have two fast spellcasters in your party ... or you can give both to your Sorcerer and watch him cast Horrid Wiltings with a casting time of 1.  With Aura Cleansing it?s incredible.

I still don't agree with it stacking, but that has nothing to do with this mod as it is now.

Casting by Intent ? Anything that make my casters worry less about spell casting failure is a good thing in my book.  Don?t underestimate this innate.

This is appropriate.

Inner Focus ? Adds 1 to Cha and saves.  This passive innate isn?t so much in and of itself, but it?s a pre-requisite for several of the more powerful new HLAs.

Excatly. In the long run its better to take this as soon as possible and get it over with taking a small HLA.

Without the 10th level spells hogging all the usage I thought that I would get more mileage out of my 9th level spells ... but that was before I saw how sucky Meteor Swarm, Black Bade of Disaster, and most of the other 9th level spells are.  I think that a ?spells? Refinements or add-on is needed before the Sorcerer really can compensate at all for what he lost in terms of being able to dish out damage or summons.  What not having 10th level spells leads to is lots of Timestops, Wishes, and Chain Contingencies.

This is partly the fact that BG series doesn't use even the whole assortment of standard 2nd edition spells, let alone those from the Complete Books of Magika.

The loss of a summons is also terrible.  I?m beginning to think that the ?Conjure Magic Golem? you gave Conjurers might have been better used here.  It fits in nicely with Spellstrike and the other ?metamagic? powers the Sorcerer has and would really set them apart from the mages who summon Planetars instead.  Yes moving this would leave a hole in Conjurers ... but even if you don?t move it IMO Sorcerers need a summoning HLA that is unique to them among mages.

I think something more appropraite would be something like an energy golem or random elemental prince.
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#4 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 01:49 PM

Somehow I managed to leave Channel Magic out of the original post so I've editied it.

Jinnai, I don't really disagree about the innate stacking with items, but I'm not really sure that it could be coded to work easily. Maybe when TG & Littiz get around to item refinements in 2010. :lol: :P

Like you posted I really wish that the developers had done a bit more with the high level spells. If there were a better selection many of my 'bad' points would be moot. I've actually spent a bit of time looking at spell adding mods but haven't found much that I like out there yet. And I would have to wonder if one of these would work with Refinements anyway given the icon limits.

#5 Caedwyr

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 02:07 PM

As far as I know the casting speed increases will always be stackable due to engine limitations. I'm sure someone could come up with a messy script that applies negative speed bonuses if the player is wearing multiple speed increasing items, but it would likely be very buggy and cause more problems than it would solve.
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#6 Jinnai

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 02:31 PM

As far as I know the casting speed increases will always be stackable due to engine limitations. I'm sure someone could come up with a messy script that applies negative speed bonuses if the player is wearing multiple speed increasing items, but it would likely be very buggy and cause more problems than it would solve.

Then the easiest way we fix this over in a different type of game when stuff like this is unfixable or messy is make it impossible to stack by stripping all but 1 item with that abiliity.
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#7 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 02:41 PM

Jinnai, really, as is, without IA the stacking is just fine IMO.

With or without Refinements there is not really a problem with the Amulet of Power and the Robe of Vecna stacking anyway since the Amulet's increase is so small.

The 'issue' if there is one at all might be with the HLA stacking with an item and the only 'easy' way to 'fix' that would be to make the robe unusable by Sorcerers. However if you do that they you really penalize all the low level Sorcerers who don't have the HLAs yet and the high level ones who chose to pick different HLAs.

I just don't see the stacking as an issue. Is it as 'true' to PnP as it could be? Nope, but I'm OK with that. It's plenty true to BGII as I see it.

#8 Littiz

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 03:07 PM

Well, first of all, thx for the time you spend with these reports/notes/comments.

I do find sense in them, but let me remind you that not all play in the same way.
Some players (like me) prefer flavour to the sheer power of the abilities.
This is one of the reasons why I wanted to do the S.A. kit, for instance.
Ex: S.A. isn't a dual-wielder, and when I will finally play with it, I'll go for Hindo's Doom, not Celestial Fury. See what I mean?

Once again, I can't be convinced that the TWO elemental abilities a sorc can learn are out of place. All mages have to meddle with elements, and a great share of their spells are based on elements, so those abilities are a fine and fitting option for sorcs, imho. It's one of the things I like the most of the current sorc table.
Again, not all players play the same. I'm sure you didn't ever use even some of the ORIGINAL hlas of various classes, am I wrong?

They will either love it or hate it.


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#9 Jinnai

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 03:44 PM

Jinnai, really, as is, without IA the stacking is just fine IMO.

With or without Refinements there is not really a problem with the Amulet of Power and the Robe of Vecna stacking anyway since the Amulet's increase is so small.

The 'issue' if there is one at all might be with the HLA stacking with an item and the only 'easy' way to 'fix' that would be to make the robe unusable by Sorcerers. However if you do that they you really penalize all the low level Sorcerers who don't have the HLAs yet and the high level ones who chose to pick different HLAs.

I just don't see the stacking as an issue. Is it as 'true' to PnP as it could be? Nope, but I'm OK with that. It's plenty true to BGII as I see it.

I know it will never be true to PnP, however to simply say "well since it won't lets just toss everything to the wind" isn't the way to go and making stuff easily powergamable though easy cheese just because of that. That's what robes+amulet+ability does, easy cheese.

Either the robs should be made unsuable by sorcs or be modded to not give a speed increase and instead something else.
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#10 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:06 PM

Some players (like me) prefer flavour to the sheer power of the abilities.

I actually agree with you here. This isn't about powergaming to me. I too have chosen to leave Celestial Fury behind to try out different weapons. There is a reason that my favorite PC of all time was a Bard and not a Sorcerer or Kensai/Mage.

Once again, I can't be convinced that the TWO elemental abilities a sorc can learn are out of place. All mages have to meddle with elements, and a great share of their spells are based on elements, so those abilities are a fine and fitting option for sorcs, imho. It's one of the things I like the most of the current sorc table.


I'll give you that only two can be chosen, but there are 4. :P

Seriously, I wouldn't mind an elemental like attack or more generic elemental like abilities, but these just don't fit. They are *too* focused for this class IMO. There is also the small fact that these are the only Sorcerer HLAs that can be chosen over and over ... they seem to be forcing the sorcerers into some kind of elementalist mold.

Also mechanically these specific abilities are *hard* to use.

In my mind these 4 powers are probably the weakest in concept in the whole HLA body of work. They really suffer in comparison to some of the other things you guys have done.

Again, not all players play the same. I'm sure you didn't ever use even some of the ORIGINAL hlas of various classes, am I wrong?


Nope, but that's more because of limited time to really try out class/combos. I've never even managed to try out the generic Fighter/Mage, the PC I think might best fit my playstyle.

Family comes first. :D B)

#11 Jinnai

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 04:15 PM

Any ideas for other 2 elemental abilities? I doubt they're dropping the elemental abilities, but might be more willing to change them.
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#12 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 06:35 PM

Hmm. I wasn?t really intending for this thread to go in this direction Jinnai, but your query got me thinking.

If I were going to suggest ?replacements? for some of the existing HLAs that I don?t like as much I might offer something like these:

Elemental Affinity

The innate magic of the Sorcerer?s body allows him to adapt to his environment. In essence this ability represents a partially unconscious shapeshifting ability that is geared towards making enabling the Sorcerer to survive in unusual places.

A side effect of this is that he becomes more resistant to elemental attacks as well. The Sorcerer gains a permanent +10% to resistance to all elemental damage and becomes immune to poison and disease.

This passive innate can only be chosen once.


Fusion of the Elements

All Sorcerers use magic to manipulate the Elements but only a few learn to meld them together into a focused and devastating attack. With this amazing display of elemental magic the Sorcerer combines streams of acid, fire, lightning, and ice into a spiraling bolt of destruction.

Much like the Agannazar's Scorcher spell this ability creates a stream of damaging effects, that while aimed at one target might affect several in its path. Those hit by the beam will suffer 6d6 of each type of damage and have his resistance against all types of elemental damage reduced 10%. Fusion of the Elements bypasses magic resistance entirely.

This innate can be chosen multiple times (3? More?). Elemental Affinity is a prerequisite.


Primal Blast

Drawing upon the pure energy of magic the Sorcerer causes a burst of intense power. Everyone within the 30? area of effect takes 10d6 magic damage, 10d6 crushing damage and is blown back. Targets must save vs Magic at -2 or be blinded.

Channeling so much magical energy is damaging to the Sorcerer?s body, causing 2d10 damage, but ironically it can also be helpful as well. Each use of Primal Blast has a 50% chance of restoring some level 1-4 spells that have already been cast (as per the limited wish restore spells I have cast option).

This innate can only be chosen once. Channel Magic is a prerequisite.


Manifestation

In the ultimate expression of his personal magic the Sorcerer using Manifestation can literally summon his inner power and give it physical expression. In doing so he looses all spellcasting ability for the duration but gains an impressive ally.

Physically the Manifestation looks like the Sorcerer who called it forth, but it?s powers are completely different. The Manifestation is a creature of pure magic and is totally immune to all spells. In combat it is melee juggernaut, attacking 3 times per round for 1d10 crushing damage, and 2d10 magic damage.

As a being of pure energy the Manifestation is incredibly hard to hit and is resistant to most damage.

This innate can only be chosen once. Primal Blast is a prerequisite.

Manifestation probably ought to have some other cool powers, but I'm getting sleepy & the creative thoughts are ebbing.

Please feel free to use, abuse, or just ignore these ideas.

#13 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 06:50 PM

Oh, and for Manifestation I was thinking Simmy + script that runs Greater Restoration, some kind of ?spell? to create the hand attacks, and an undispellable Tensor?s Transformation.

#14 Caedwyr

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Posted 02 May 2004 - 07:11 PM

It would be interesting if the Manifestation could be made killable by dispel/remove magic and can be significantly weakened by spells like pierce magic and/or spellstrike, since these spell attack the magical forces.
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PnP Celestials
Geomantic Sorcerer Kit

#15 T.G.Maestro

T.G.Maestro

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 12:12 AM

I like the idea of Fusion of elements and Primal Blast - they might become reality... ;) .
Otherwise, I'm with Littiz here. I agree 100%.
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

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#16 T.G.Maestro

T.G.Maestro

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 01:50 AM

I'd lie if I'd say that I never toyed with the idea to give the new Refinements Sorcerer some offensive abilities. Yet as we progressed with the development, I somehow forgot these ideas, and implemented this class with different abilities. I agree that our sorcerers lack an offensive HLA, one that is fitting to their current state. So I simply used one of my old ideas for them (an innate that has MUCH in common with your Primal Blast, Rathwellin!), and formed it into a working HLA. I'd warn everyone though that this innate is only an experiment. It'd need a new icon, and most importantly, a new visual. So this is merely an idea for now:

Shockwave
Powerful sorcerers can go beyond the classic limits of arcane magic. Channeling pure magical energies in their bodies, they are able to unleash part of it in a massive blast. This ability is different from any other magical formulas - it doesn't require difficult gestures, or heavy concentration. The sorcerer simply focuses his power into a spot somewhere in his line of sight, and creates a concentrated outburst of magical energy in one moment. This shockwave deals 6D10 damage to every creature in the target area (no save), and knocks everyone uncouscious for 1 round. If the victims fail their save vs. breath at -2, they suffer additional 4D10 points of damage, they fall uncounscious for 2 rounds, and will be knocked back to a great distance by the power of the blast.
Since this is not an extra spell for this class, but an alternative use of arcane energies, sorcerers must sacrifice 1D3 spells from their selection (starting from the most powerful ones) every time they use this ability.

Requirements: Inner Focus, Casting by Intent
Can be chosen 3(?) times
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

Member of The Silver Star team.

#17 Rathwellin the Bard

Rathwellin the Bard

    Bloody engine of destruction ... oh, wait. That was my Sorcerer

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:00 AM

I like the way Shockwave looks. 10d10 is a lot of damage, but the tradeoff of 1-3 high level spells seem to be a fair price.

I would like to see something like this HLA.

#18 T.G.Maestro

T.G.Maestro

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:02 AM

Actually, I have it finished and working, it only lacks an icon and a central visual. And of course the discussion with Littiz weather to add it, or not :) .
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Refinements v2 has been released!
Go and visit the website or the forum for more info!

Member of The Silver Star team.

#19 Rathwellin the Bard

Rathwellin the Bard

    Bloody engine of destruction ... oh, wait. That was my Sorcerer

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:04 AM

Tease!

:P :P :P

;)

#20 Schatten

Schatten

    tomo the homo

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Posted 03 May 2004 - 04:08 AM

its good. maybe a bit too powerfull with 100damage.
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