117 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually, I'd be interested more in an easier and universal cover story - one that can be added to the Extend Spell HLA's description, and is no longer than 4-5 lines.

[the bigg]

"Due to the many differences between how the various spells work, only some spells' duration will be extended". I believe it's already used in some places too in PnP: "due to the ways the spell works, you cannot make permanent spells like Strenght or Friends".
Eh, nice those lazy generic explainations?

[T.G.Maestro]

As lame as it may sound, this is the best starter for now Bigg .
I'll meditate on it for a while, and create this ability.

[T.G.Maestro]

I think I'll make 2 separate versions of this ability/spell.

First, I'll create a mage-version, that will be a 9th or maybe a 10th level spell, called Extend Spell. Depending on this, it will increase the duration of affected spells cast in it's duration by 50% (9th level mage spell) or 100% (True Dweomer). I'm undecided about the duration of the base spell, I think I'll set it between 3-5 rounds.

Sorcerers will receive the passive version of this HLA. They will have the option to pick the Extend Spell innate HLA 5 times, each pick increasing the spell durations permanently by an extra 10%.

[Jinnai]

I think I'll make 2 separate versions of this ability/spell.

First, I'll create a mage-version, that will be a 9th or maybe a 10th level spell, called Extend Spell. Depending on this, it will increase the duration of affected spells cast in it's duration by 50% (9th level mage spell) or 100% (True Dweomer). I'm undecided about the duration of the base spell, I think I'll set it between 3-5 rounds.

Sorcerers will receive the passive version of this HLA. They will have the option to pick the Extend Spell innate HLA 5 times, each pick increasing the spell durations permanently by an extra 10%.

Well for the spell, it depends on how long it extends it. 10% could be level 9 but 20% i'd say would be too powerful.

Actually this can be quite easily abused if its put at a high rate, even 10%, because a wizard can cast the spell, then cast it again with the increased duration, then cast it again....you see the pattern....

Also the sorceror's power needs to have some limits or there spells could eventually reach across the map. Personally 5 times is enough, but at most 10. I can't see any reason the duration should be more than double the original.

Edited by Jinnai, 29 November 2004 - 11:24 AM.

[fallen_demon]

I think the mage and sorcerer versions should have different names to limit confusion

[Littiz]

You remember that I liked the idea, but you convinced me that no "cover story" would be possible.

Well, you did a damn good job convincing me...
I see your whim is changing again (I'm getting used to the issue... ) but this doesn't change the fact that this ability could only be poorly implemented.

[T.G.Maestro]

I think the mage and sorcerer versions should have different names to limit confusion

For the mage versions (the spell), I have the names Spell Extension (the 9th level version) and Epic Spell Extension (planned TD version). The sorcerer passive HLA will use the name Extend Spell.

for the spell, it depends on how long it extends it. 10% could be level 9 but 20% i'd say would be too powerful.

Actually, it is more likely to work at +50% for the 9th level version, and +100% for the TD spell. And I don't see how this could become more powerful than Improved Alacrity for example.

Actually this can be quite easily abused if its put at a high rate, even 10%, because a wizard can cast the spell, then cast it again with the increased duration, then cast it again....you see the pattern....

And honestly, would you sacrifice all your 9th level slots -and sacrifice Time Stops, PW:Kill, Shapechange, Dragon's Breath, etc- to be able to re-cast this one with an extended duration over and over.. ? If so, I think you deserve the "abused" cumulative duration bonuses.

Also the sorceror's power needs to have some limits or there spells could eventually reach across the map. Personally 5 times is enough, but at most 10. I can't see any reason the duration should be more than double the original.

Sorcerers will be able to pick the passive 5 times, each pick increasing the affected spells' duration by 15%. After the 5th pick this would result in a total of 198% (almost doubled duration).

You remember that I liked the idea, but you convinced me that no "cover story" would be possible.

Yes, that is still the weak point of this ability/spell. But since someone has pointed out that the "because of the nature of magic.." line in other pnp descriptions, I feel better .

[Littiz]

It's nice to follow Pnp for the good things, not for the lame ones.
Also, we don't have an electronic DM that can adjust things when needed!
I thought at first we could discriminate between the number of affected creatures,
but this isn't the case: there are spells that affect the entire party without projectiles, conversely there are spells that affect one single creature using a pro.

The ability isn't needed (sorcs have already TONS of abilities, especially in V2, it would actually create problems with tables like the ones for bards, which have less stuff), and it's just likely to cause bugs and inconsistencies.
All in all, it's a mess, and I see why this opcode was left unused.

My comrades, once again: please start working on things after they've been debated..

[Schatten]

It's nice to follow Pnp for the good things, not for the lame ones.
Also, we don't have an electronic DM that can adjust things when needed!
I thought at first we could discriminate between the number of affected creatures,
but this isn't the case: there are spells that affect the entire party without projectiles, conversely there are spells that affect one single creature using a pro.

The ability isn't needed (sorcs have already TONS of abilities, especially in V2, it would actually create problems with tables like the ones for bards, which have less stuff), and it's just likely to cause bugs and inconsistencies.
All in all, it's a mess, and I see why this opcode was left unused.

My comrades, once again: please start working on things after they've been debated..

this has merits.... if only, i would implement this only for certain spells like stoneskin to save an extra cast after rest but not for things like protection from or so.... dont know...

[T.G.Maestro]

The ability isn't needed (sorcs have already TONS of abilities, especially in V2, it would actually create problems with tables like the ones for bards, which have less stuff), and it's just likely to cause bugs and inconsistencies.

As you may have noticed, we use larger HLA table for the semi-3rdE classes (Barbarians, Monks, Sorcerers) - these tables contain 13-15 abilities each. For the 2ndE classes and kits we use tables with 10-12 HLAs.
In all honesty, an additional ability to the sorcerers table would only "finalize" it, since ATM we have 14 HLAs in it - as I'm sure you admit, 15 looks much better. Don't get me wrong, its not like I'm desperate to find an ability to fill this hole, nothing like that. But if I can add something useful that can actually "finish" the table, I won't hesitate.
Bugs?
Inconsistencies?

I thought at first we could discriminate between the number of affected creatures,
but this isn't the case: there are spells that affect the entire party without projectiles, conversely there are spells that affect one single creature using a pro.

Yep, thats what I said you months ago about the "problematic" description.
BTW, which spells affect the whole party without projectiles?

All in all, it's a mess, and I see why this opcode was left unused.

It works pretty well from one PoV (I tested the effects, and they are completely reliable on the affected spells), but you are right, it is rather messy from another PoV. The fact that it only affects spells without .pro files makes it most difficult to write a useable description for it. But as I said, this is the only point where this opcode/HLA fails, it's effects work as they were intended.

My comrades, once again: please start working on things after they've been debated..

Two things:
- working on stuff for my own amusement in my free time (since I finished everything that I could do for v2 for now) never equals with automatically adding it to the mod. The fact that I created a working beta for this only makes it easier to debate it's effects, having a useable file at hand.
- I asked for a discussion and opinions about this opcode at least 2 times in the past months, without any answers, thats why I started to work on it myself (and again, as I said, and as I wrote in the mail too, it is a beta, a sketch, not something I'd definitely include in the mod ).

[Littiz]

As you may have noticed, we use larger HLA table for the semi-3rdE classes (Barbarians, Monks, Sorcerers) - these tables contain 13-15 abilities each. For the 2ndE classes and kits we use tables with 10-12 HLAs.

Actually we're adding stuff to druids, rangers, warriors, sorcs, monks, mages... I say it's becoming a big cauldron, only rogues have been left behind.
Sorcs' table would become quite oversized, imho.

Bugs?
Inconsistencies?

Oh, come on, you did understand, I was referring to how affected spells are "chosen".

I'm sure you admit, 15 looks much better.

uh?
why not 20, then.

BTW, which spells affect the whole party without projectiles?

Many. There's a specific target setting to affect the party.

It works pretty well from one PoV (I tested the effects, and they are completely reliable on the affected spells), but you are right, it is rather messy from another PoV.

And I repeat, I bet this is why Bio decided not to use it.

I asked for a discussion and opinions about this opcode at least 2 times in the past months, without any answers, thats why I started to work on it myself (and again, as I said, and as I wrote in the mail too, it is a beta, a sketch, not something I'd definitely include in the mod

I did reply the first time, agreeing that the ability was not to be included.
I didn't reply to the other mails, since, as you might have noticed, I haven't time to reply to all mails (I have 20+ from you still unanswered).
But since that point had been already debated, I answered to other urgent issues when I could.

Edited by Littiz, 30 November 2004 - 08:59 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually we're adding stuff to druids, rangers, warriors, sorcs, monks, mages... I say it's becoming a big cauldron, only rogues have been left behind.

You don't have to say it twice... you need more rogue HLAs? You will get them...

Oh, come on, you did understand, I was referring to how affected spells are "chosen".

uh?
why not 20, then.

No, I mean that there are 5 slots in each line, and a 15th ability would fill in the last remaining "hole" in the 3rd line.

Many. There's a specific target setting to affect the party.

Correct, I forgot that one.

So, what should we do with it? It is "ready for use" ATM (icons, visuals, files are finished), but I can accept if we forget the whole idea and drop it. (I'm waiting for as many opinions as possible).

[Jinnai]

Actually this can be quite easily abused if its put at a high rate, even 10%, because a wizard can cast the spell, then cast it again with the increased duration, then cast it again....you see the pattern....

And honestly, would you sacrifice all your 9th level slots -and sacrifice Time Stops, PW:Kill, Shapechange, Dragon's Breath, etc- to be able to re-cast this one with an extended duration over and over.. ? If so, I think you deserve the "abused" cumulative duration bonuses.

Ok lets take 1 spell there...probably not the best to use with this combo, but it works: Time Stop

Time Stop normally lasts for 6 rounds, however i can devote just two slots to this ability in 9th level and get over 13 rounds for 1 timestop. Or worse i could use all 4 of my HLA picks on spell extensions, use 4 slots for spell extension and 1 for an 8 hour time stop. I can then clear an entire area at my leisure, rest then move to the next area and repreat.

Now this can really become abusve when you use the 10th level spell ability. If I use it at level 21 with 4 picks of that and 1 from the spellbook i can cast it for almost 8 and 1/2 hours.

Edited by Jinnai, 30 November 2004 - 08:09 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Time Stop normally lasts for 6 rounds

4 rounds (24 seconds).

however i can devote just two slots to this ability in 9th level and get over 13 rounds for 1 timestop

I guess I wasn't clear, but the mage (spell) version of Spell Extension wouldn't be stackable with itself. In other words, it won't matter how many times you re-cast it, it won't increases spell durations above 150% either way.

use 4 slots for spell extension and 1 for an 8 hour time stop. I can then clear an entire area at my leisure, rest then move to the next area and repreat.

Honestly, you can do this "clense the area" thingy with a nice combination of Time Stops and Improved Alacrities much more effective and faster.

[Jinnai]

however i can devote just two slots to this ability in 9th level and get over 13 rounds for 1 timestop

I guess I wasn't clear, but the mage (spell) version of Spell Extension wouldn't be stackable with itself. In other words, it won't matter how many times you re-cast it, it won't increases spell durations above 150% either way.

use 4 slots for spell extension and 1 for an 8 hour time stop. I can then clear an entire area at my leisure, rest then move to the next area and repreat.

Honestly, you can do this "clense the area" thingy with a nice combination of Time Stops and Improved Alacrities much more effective and faster.

Well its good that the 9th level spell wouldn't be, but if the 10th level ability is, its still overpowered if i can cast it 4 times cast something like Simalcron and sleep to wake up with all my 10th level spells available, my simalcron still around and any other spells with 1/round/level duration intact and i could do this at a fairly low level.

[Littiz]

So, what should we do with it? It is "ready for use" ATM (icons, visuals, files are finished),

I knew it: now you try to use as leverage the fact that you have a "readied" ability, that you invested time on it, and so on.
Please, once again: start working on stuff after we've debated it.
Or do it completely silently

(I'm waiting for as many opinions as possible).

Of course, but remember that the opinion of an author weighs more
Especially when the ability would be unreliable as in this case (players are not supposed to know when a spell uses a pro or not: as you've proved yourself with your question, it's a somewhat foggy issue even to us..)
Ehy, you've made these points before me, stop changing your whims

Edited by Littiz, 01 December 2004 - 11:39 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

My whims aren't changing ATM - my only question is:
"What should we do with this ability?"