71 replies to this topic

[Shadow Angel]

The Yugoloths will decide who will win.

After all, they're the ones who have been manipulating both sides almost from the beginning with well timed defections and betrayials. Not to mention that they're hiring out of their lesser breeds as mercinaries to both sides.

They have carefully laid out a plan for total domination of the lower planes and have followed it for eons.

[Bane]

Frankly I think they will allow it to drag on as long as possible because this way the two sides are focused on each other, the winning side may turn on them once finished.

[MERLANCE]

Frankly I think they will allow it to drag on as long as possible because this way the two sides are focused on each other, the winning side may turn on them once finished.

More likely theyll just sunder the multiverse, starting with the Prime material plane. Blood Wat is the only thing keeping fineds from taking over.

[Deathsangel]

so where is the Ldy of Pain more powerful, Sigil? (is she evil, I am guessing yes)

who has the real power to control Lolth then and who is the leader of the dragonlance gods (who is their overgod?)

Sigil is the centre of all balance in the D&Dverse, and the Lady of Pain is effectively a part of the city, the same way Ao is part of Realmspace. So in other words, she's true neutral (but with evil tendencies).

The Lady and Pain and Ao are the only D&D beings I've ever heard of who have power over gods, but each of them only has that power if the god enters/is connected with their realm of influence. As far as I know none of the other worlds or planes in the D&Dverse have overgods - at least none that we've been told about.

Some of the non-Realms pantheons of deities do have leaders, but they in no way have the sort of power over their fellow gods as Ao does.

There was another god, before the Lady of Pain, in Sigil. His name was Aoskar, god of the portals he was actually the neutral force in Sigil, now the Lady of Pain has taken over and she indeed has evil tendencies.

[Consis]

A Few Questions And Points

Q#1: Cyric, what books are the best for referencing any or all of the "Blood War" events and details?

Q#2: How strategically important is the river Styx to the Blood War? I would think this the most important of all considering it connects to many of the lower planes.

Secondly, I am very much interested in the whole concept of this "Blood War". I have many personal theories for how it came to be and how it may end. Earlier, someone stated that the "Blood War" was the only thing keeping the demons, fiends, devils, etc. from taking over. But whoever said this does not clearly understand the ecology of such creatures. These kinds of creatures more than outnumber all of the good guys from the seaven heavens, mount Olympus, etc. The difference is that the bad guys(or demons, devils, fiends, etc) all hate each other just as much as they hate the good guys. Because of this, they effectively stifle themselves into equal opposition. They are effectively everyone's enemy including their own. The only reason they would ever work together for a common purpose is because they are being forced to by more powerful evil beings. And even when you look at the behavior of those more powerful evil beings they are out to simply gain more power over the other evil beings which effectively stifles them as well. I have no fear that they will remain a self-defeating force.

As for my own personal ideas concerning the matter, I have imagined a very interesting aspect to the "Blood War". I plan to write a story detailing a very interesting twist. My twist specifically addresses the reason why most of the large battles are fought in the Gray Wastes.

I believe that if battles were fought on either of their home planes, the being closest to a creature that dies gains its life-force. I imagine these sort of invisible bubbles of pocketed energy that is released upon the death of a creature on either plane. The more creatures that die within a specific area, in proximity to a still living being, transfer the small amount of energy to the victor, thus enhancing the being's strength and power.

This is how I believe the Balor's came to have such power. I believe, in acnient times, the two battling forces conducted their great battles either in the Nine Hells or the Abyss. I believe that once the Gods of the lower planes began to realize the effect the battles were having on their once subordinates they quickly moved to conduct their battles in the Gray Wastes before they became too powerful. The Balors must have been the remaining few who've survived those ancient lower planar battles to which are now a forgotten secret to all but them.

This is how I believe the "Blood War" will end. I imagine some being swinging a deal with the Lady of Pain that would give them permanent usable access to the River Styx. Once this occurs, I think it will be unavoidable for these newer younger generations of evils to find that fighting battles on either lower plane will greatly increase their powers. Once they do, I think the gods of evil will try to intervene like they once did, however this time a Balor will emerge more powerful than before and thus effectively challenging the gods of evil for one of their thrones.

That's the cycle of how I think the evil gods came to be. It's all about the power.

Edited by Consis, 25 June 2004 - 06:31 AM.

[Cyric]

A Few Questions And Points

Q#1: Cyric, what books are the best for referencing any or all of the "Blood War" events and details?

uhhuuhh...don't know. I know just just some forgotten realms novels and that's all. the planescape gamebooks are a good source of info

Earlier, someone stated that the "Blood War" was the only thing keeping the demons, fiends, devils, etc. from taking over. But whoever said this does not clearly understand the ecology of such creatures. These kinds of creatures more than outnumber all of the good guys from the seaven heavens, mount Olympus, etc. The difference is that the bad guys(or demons, devils, fiends, etc) all hate each other just as much as they hate the good guys. Because of this, they effectively stifle themselves into equal opposition. They are effectively everyone's enemy including their own. The only reason they would ever work together for a common purpose is because they are being forced to by more powerful evil beings.

you answered the question 'why would they work together' yourself. Many powerfull evil beings would fight against each other that's true but a lot of them would temporary unite to accomplish greater plots like gaining control over a Higher plane, and once accomplished they could fight each other again.

As for my own personal ideas concerning the matter, I have imagined a very interesting aspect to the "Blood War". I plan to write a story detailing a very interesting twist. My twist specifically addresses the reason why most of the large battles are fought in the Gray Wastes.

write write write I love planescape fanfiction and stories

[Deathsangel]

A Few Questions And Points

Q#1: Cyric, what books are the best for referencing any or all of the "Blood War" events and details?

uhhuuhh...don't know. I know just just some forgotten realms novels and that's all. the planescape gamebooks are a good source of info

Yeah, my source of info!!!!

[Xaositect_Crayon]

first of all law and order are never stronger than chaos... they both have advantages and disadvantages

second of all the lady may be hard edged but I doubt she is of evil tendancies. If she was evil she'd most likely rule over sigil... not just protect the city and keep people for worshiping her.

The whole thing between Aoskar and the Lady was probably a personal conflict rather than her wanting sigil. if she wanted sigil she'd do more than just protect it. she'd directly rule it.

she is TN I am sure

The great upheavel:
Yes more lives where lost there than the factions fighting. But they'd fight forever if the lady hadnt stepped in (much like the bloodwar now). It's all a matter of how you look at it. If those that couldnt join together to turn 53 into 15... then they are mostly the ones causing problems.

[Bane]

first of all law and order are never stronger than chaos... they both have advantages and disadvantages

Also depends in what context you mean stronger, like, which is more appealing to people...etc

[Xaositect_Crayon]

militarily...
you get someone who always structures every attack without flexibility out there and they are so predictable you could almost Jedi your way into making them kill themselves....

[Shadow Angel]

Deathsangel Posted on Jun 25 2004, 02:55 AM

There was another god, before the Lady of Pain, in Sigil. His name was Aoskar, god of the portals he was actually the neutral force in Sigil, now the Lady of Pain has taken over and she indeed has evil tendencies.

Actually Aoskar tried to leverage being the god of doors into taking over Sigil from the Lady of Pain. He failed and ended up in the dead book for now.

Consis Posted on Jun 25 2004, 06:15 AM

Q#2: How strategically important is the river Styx to the Blood War? I would think this the most important of all considering it connects to many of the lower planes.

The River Styx is a barrier, mode of transport and even a means of destruction. It connects the first layers of each of the contested lower planes as well as several layers of the both Baator and the Abyss. It is a means of invasion and a dangerous weakness to both sides.

Strange how the Yugoloth have the best navigators for the river.

[Deathsangel]

first of all law and order are never stronger than chaos... they both have advantages and disadvantages

second of all the lady may be hard edged but I doubt she is of evil tendancies. If she was evil she'd most likely rule over sigil... not just protect the city and keep people for worshiping her.

The whole thing between Aoskar and the Lady was probably a personal conflict rather than her wanting sigil. if she wanted sigil she'd do more than just protect it. she'd directly rule it.

she is TN I am sure

The great upheavel:
Yes more lives where lost there than the factions fighting. But they'd fight forever if the lady hadnt stepped in (much like the bloodwar now). It's all a matter of how you look at it. If those that couldnt join together to turn 53 into 15... then they are mostly the ones causing problems.

Some of the smaller fractions still exist, though there are now 15 main factions. The ones that are too small are mostly not in Sigil as The Lady banished them

[Dalis'ilhea]

@Consis

Just to let you know the only way for a Baatezu or Tanar'ri to permantly die is to be in Baator/Abyss otherwise they are just banished upon 'death' to said plane for about 100 years so f you look at that fact then the reason for them fighting in the grey wastes is because it is a neutral ground (plus both sides barrter with the Night hags for things) and the Balor came about because they were able to seize that power from other Tanar'ri, or they were gifted the power by more powerful beings (means of promotion in the ranks) the Baatezu mans of promotion is more militant and a damn sight harder as well. hope this helps with your story :turnip2:

[Consis]

Dalis'ilhea,

Thankyou for the input. It is a very helpful reminder. However, I plan to do the forgotten realms genre justice by diving into grossly significant details. For example:

--->the demon/devil banishment rule is a rule that is mostly applied to the Prime material plane. (ie when they are killed there, the banishment happens)

I have noticed the details concerning lower planar deaths are not available. No one has written about them yet therefore I intend to be the first to make such a bold analysis.

--->the information you gave on the Balors is purely speculative. In actuality no one really knows much about the balors. The only bit of true information that I know of to be in existence is that one of them is working for Lolth. I donot know the details concerning this relationship therefore I won't speak of it. Also concerning balors, as I recall, there are only 7 or 8 total in all existence. With one being occupied with Lolth that leaves me with 7 to toy with in a deeply contrived plotline.

[MERLANCE]

as I recall, there are only 7 or 8 total in all existence.

I am almost postive that there are only 6. One was named Balor (though Ive heard him refereed to as Balrog, though they may be indeed different demons), another was Errtu (from the Drizzt books). I dont know the others.

Edited by MERLANCE, 28 June 2004 - 09:24 AM.

[Feanor]

as I recall, there are only 7 or 8 total in all existence.

I am almost postive that there are only 6. One was named Balor (though Ive heard him refereed to as Balrog, though they may be indeed different demons), another was Errtu (from the Drizzt books). I dont know the others.

I read in an online ADD manual that there are 24 Balors. Are you sure about your info, Merlance ?

The only bit of true information that I know of to be in existence is that one of them is working for Lolth. I donot know the details concerning this relationship therefore I won't speak of it. Also concerning balors, as I recall, there are only 7 or 8 total in all existence. With one being occupied with Lolth that leaves me with 7 to toy with in a deeply contrived plotline.

Consis, another Balor, called Severik, serves Demogorgon.

[Consis]

Feanor,

Do you have any references or is this made up? I won't accept fanfic as a source.

[NiGHTMARE]

The 2nd edition Monstrous Manual says:

Habitat/Society: Balors exist for one purpose only: to wage the Blood War. They are driven by the strongest primal desire to fight and will command whole legions of beings into battle.

Balors also recognize a subtle but important aspect of the War: the prime material plane. They will often make pacts with mortals to perform services for the purpose of gaining power in the prime material plane. Balors know that the more followers or allies they can gain in the prime material, the more power they will have there.

There are at least 24 balors known to exist. The creatures do not inhabit any particular area of the Abyss, but wander about forming armies for battle with the baatezu (q.v.).

[Consis]

NiGHTMARE,

Thanks for the excellent 2nd ed reference. I'm curious what 3rd edition has to say concerning Balors. If 3rd conflicts with 2nd then I will simply take 3rd as law while considering 2nd to be outdated.

As much as I find my own personal affinity for 2nd edition(that's where I started playing), I can't ignore the most current releases. That is the way of the Forgotten Realms. The details are something the fans will be sure to know. One could not even hope to pull the proverbial wool over their eyes.

[JPS]

Here's the D&D 3.5 entry on Balors, but it doesn't contain any descriptive text. I've got the 3rd edition Monster Manual lying around as well, but it doesn't say anything about numbers (or the Blood War) either. You decide if that means the 2nd edition information still holds true or if it means that these things were scrapped for 3rd edition. Or if it just means that it's in another book...