71 replies to this topic

[MERLANCE]

The 2nd edition Monstrous Manual says:

Habitat/Society: Balors exist for one purpose only: to wage the Blood War. They are driven by the strongest primal desire to fight and will command whole legions of beings into battle.

Balors also recognize a subtle but important aspect of the War: the prime material plane. They will often make pacts with mortals to perform services for the purpose of gaining power in the prime material plane. Balors know that the more followers or allies they can gain in the prime material, the more power they will have there.

There are at least 24 balors known to exist. The creatures do not inhabit any particular area of the Abyss, but wander about forming armies for battle with the baatezu (q.v.).

Hmph. Well, Im almost certain there were 6 in 1st Edition.

Ill continue searching online, as most of my books are on long term loan.

[Consis]

JPS,

Thankyou for the link, it was very helpful. Fascinating stuff really, though the information seems more suited to a module for Neverwinter Nights. It seems 2nd edition provides more information on habitat and ecology.

Personally, I like the new 3rd edition system and such however, I'm finding more and more of the difficulties in implementing it. On paper it has no rival, while 2nd edition on paper was very vague, contradictive, and endlessly contraversial. The difference is, 2nd edition was able to inspire a great deal more people than 3rd. I don't know if it is because 3rd hasn't been around for as long or what but 3rd brings a new a different kind of player with similar interests as a 2nd player but far less intricative story-telling capabilities.

Ah well, all this means is I shall use the number 24 as my base for Balors in existence..

[JPS]

Yes, I have the same feeling about it, especially the monster descriptions. I appreciate that they aren't forcing players to accept any one view of a certain creature as the correct one, but I think that some of them, the powerful ones in particular, are just reduced to different combinations of special abilities ? you just get a bunch of numbers but aren't told what to do with the creatures except fighting them. But I can't say I'm a great fan of the classical D&D monsters at the best of times, so it doesn't really matter that much to me.

Glad that I could be of help.

[raptor]

Personally i use 3E/3.5E rules, and use pretty much only 2E books for background. they are simply better at different things in my opinion. From what i have gathered mr. Greenwood was rather anoyed at the little amounts of details he was allowed to add to the 3rd ed books. If you look closelly at the rules there is actually very little differences between them, you can easilly simulate 2E to 95% accuracy in the 3E rules.

So 2E descriptions still stands unless specifically oposed by the 3E descriptions (havent seen any one i can remember yet.).

Oh and the biggest info on demons devils woudl clearlly be Planescape, though the Manual of teh Planes book for 3rd ed, and the Book of Vile darkness should also give some info on the different layers and where Balors exist and such (havent read enough in them to say anything yet).

Regarding the war, I dont think it can be won, if the devils rent in to much help, the demons probablly will either get some unlikelly help or the celestrials will break in and throw off the devil army. i just dont think it will ever happen. but somehow it does seem more plausible that Devils could muster enough help to hit the demons back.

ugh another long post.

[NiGHTMARE]

Hellbound names a couple more Balors: Illsender and Oustra.

[Feanor]

But the Lord of the Abyss and of the Nine Hells do they involve themselves personally inn the Blood War ? Except for Bel, the other ones don't seem to take a special interest in this war.

[raptor]

Correct, Bel is the only one taking active role in the bloodwar. the rest is to busy scheming on eachother.

[Shadow Angel]

The Hells have the Dark Eight, a council of eight pit fiends that act as the high command for the Blood war. Each one is responcible for a different aspect of the war.

The Demon Princes vary on their involvement depending on their mood and whim. Most are to involved in Abyssal politics.

Another balor is Severik in the Book of Vile Darkness.

[Bane]

You forgot Asmodeus, the supreme head devil and ruler of the eight.

[Feanor]

You forgot Asmodeus, the supreme head devil and ruler of the eight.

Shadow Angel didn't meant the dark eight as the rulers of the Eight Hells, Felstorm. Dark Eight = a group of eight powerful pit fiends (commanded by Bel, lord of the First Hell, but not sure) who lead the war.

[Bane]

okay then, if the pit fiends are like the improved pit fiends of BGII then devils will own.

[MERLANCE]

okay then, if the pit fiends are like the improved pit fiends of BGII then devils will own.

Dont base youre demonic/devilish views on BG2. In regards to demons and devils, there really isnt any consistency.

[Bane]

okay then, if the pit fiends are like the improved pit fiends of BGII then devils will own.

Dont base youre demonic/devilish views on BG2. In regards to demons and devils, there really isnt any consistency.

True true, I know what makes Demons but what are devils supposed to be. For example, demons are created from all the evil desires of mortals (that's why there is little consistency in the hells and it is infinite) and that is why they are chaotic. What about teh devils?

[NiGHTMARE]

Demons are created from the souls of chaotic evil people, devils from the souls of lawful evil people. Simple .

Though Yugoloths are not made from the souls of neutral evil people. I'm not sure what happens to them .

[Feanor]

I wonder why the Lords of the Hells and the ones of the Abyss don't put an end to this war, since they have no interest in it and it only consumes forces which could be used for their schemes... B)

[MERLANCE]

I wonder why the Lords of the Hells and the ones of the Abyss don't put an end to this war, since they have no interest in it and it only consumes forces which could be used for their schemes... B)

Its the principal of it. Its about "my way of evil is better than your way of evil".

Besides, the Demons are CHAOTIC and EVIL. they do random evil things, and revel in slaughter.


As for the DEVILS, the nine hells sends off a lot of the devils so that the individual layers cant raise armies against each other.

If the fiends dont get their share of the carnage, they get grumpy.

[Shadow Angel]

NiGHTMARE Posted on Jul 17 2004, 03:28 AM

Though Yugoloths are not made from the souls of neutral evil people. I'm not sure what happens to them

The souls of neutral evil people become larve. This serve as a form of currency on the loweer planes. Some are bought by the devils and demons and transformed into minor devils/demons as the case may be.

As for the Lords of the Nine Hells allow the war to continue, it keeps the lesser devils distracted from true power.

Side note. Bel as Lord of the First answers to Asmodeus, as a general in the blood war he answers to the Dark Eight. Keeps him to busy for political infighting. Especially since he used his position as general to take over the first layer.

[Arachnos]

Neglecting the fact that the Blood War is eternal, and shows no sign of stopping, who would you bet on to win?

Demons have the significant advantage in numbers (Infinite Layers of the Abyss) against the devils (The Nine Hells).

Devils are highly trained and organized against mobs of demons.

There a large number of Demon Lords (infinite?), but only 9 Archdevils, several deposed Archdevils, and the Dark Eight (generals of hell) as major players.

Demons dont have the number advantage you think they have.

The abyss = infinite number of layers of finite size.

Baator = 9 layers of infinite size...

I make that a draw.....

IMHO, the winners of the blood war wont be the devils or the demons...

go 'loths.........

[cmyster]

First many here talked about lesser/greater gods and overgods and such, what about Designers?

Second from what I can recall the Asymon family is much stronger than any Demon or Devil (Solar with 250000 xp and Planetar with 185000 xp or something like that) and there are other powerful creatures stronger then the most powerful fiend, like Adamantine Dragons, and they are buying their time, not fighting evil very hard. so I think that if the blood war will end with much depleted forces on both sides of evil, the higher planes won't have any problem to hold evil back.

Third, let's say that the Devils ally with the Demons, in that case I think that the what'sname from Nirvana (the 3 creatures that can change everything to everything else including their alignment) would intervene, or is their power is restricted only to Nirvana?