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Overused Ideas in BG-series


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#21 -Notmrt-

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 01:13 PM

also you need to remember that a final touch up can also ruin something specil ive seen that hapen a fair few times lol ive even been guilty of this perfectionist trait ofscrewing things up due to improvments myself

#22 SConrad

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 02:56 PM

is a very wide topic, and a lot of things fit in under it, if you get my drift.

I'd disagree - I think "background is unique" is a very narrow and well defined thing which people easily recognize. If they speak rudely about it they'd call it a "freak", and if they are polite they will say "overly peculiar". It equally applies to Melirinda who is half-vampire and half-cat-race unknown anywhere on Faerun, Deribil who is a son of a Demon King whom an enslaved wizard transported to the Matreial Plane since he saw goodness in him :) I'd say the BG already carries one such extreme character independently of the NPC cast - Charname of Candlekeep. Giving him more companions like that makes the game (to me) turn into a circus show (do not cry, Aerie :) ) Bob put down the same sentiment as well.

Bob, I hear you about assuming multiple reloads, though I simply do not play the mods that do that to you after trying Solaufein once upon a time.

Well, maybe so. I give in, this time. Gloat while you can... ;) :P

Well, every DM has at least once put his/her character into a party and let that character become the focus of the game. A strong subplot for an NPC is a good thing (Jaheira's Harper quests). An NPC with a few enemies that are his/hers can offer great moments (Mazzy and the Shade Lord, Valygar and Lavok). The problem comes when too many dialogs become a chance for the Villains to tell the NPC their evil plans, gloat at the NPC, tell the NPC how interesting he/she is, etc. The trick is finding the balance.

Personally, I think two or three NPC-centric Quests and/or encounters and one or two new villains (plus their lieutenants) focussed on the NPC is the best way to go, but that is of course entirely subjective.

Well, I hadn't really planned a TC or something based on my NPC. But the personal quest (which largely is his main char development, or at least triggered by it) will be quite large...

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#23 SConrad

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 03:07 PM

Since he is a druid we can go nutters and give him wis of 13 to attract the power-players :)

You'd like that, wouldn't you? ;) (flashback of our conversation in another forum...)

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#24 -Ashara-

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 03:46 PM

Do not take me wrong: some NPCs I would not play with even if they had all 25s... some I would play with if they had all 8s... and yes, that rule works both ways. I like playing with Cernd, and his 18 WIS does not bother me, and neither does Coran's 20 DEX or Kivan's 18/21 STR.

Stats really do not matter that much - I know it's a heresy, but I have recently created so many PCs to test the mod and for simplicity I went with whatever I can get on the dice roll, ending up with the "vegetable merchants" - and they worked just fine.

But I think that an author has to realize what the stat means to successfully imagine the character - and not in the vague terms of "he is really wonderfully smart".

It is easy with "soft" (WIC) 3 stats - because they require lots of work on author's part. When I was planning Leonora was I truly able to produce dialogues reflecting 19 INT?! AS IF!

OTOH, the game mechanics takes care of the 3 "hard" (SDC) stats. It's easy to open NI and put STR/DEX/CON to 25 w/o thinking about what monster we are creating - because it does not involve the autor's groundwork; Basically it would be nice that everyone who claims to create a char with 18/00 strength tried to carry a 200 lbs pack... or breaststrocke for 10 km. Just to appreciate what the number in the stat involves.

*off the soap box*

#25 BobTokyo

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 05:09 PM

Do not take me wrong: some NPCs I would not play with even if they had all 25s... some I would play with if they had all 8s... and yes, that rule works both ways. I like playing with Cernd, and his 18 WIS does not bother me, and neither does Coran's 20 DEX or Kivan's 18/21 STR.

Stats really do not matter that much - I know it's a heresy, but I have recently created so many PCs to test the mod and for simplicity I went with whatever I can get on the dice roll, ending up with the "vegetable merchants" - and they worked just fine.

But I think that an author has to realize what the stat means to successfully imagine the character - and not in the vague terms of "he is really wonderfully smart".

It is easy with "soft" (WIC) 3 stats - because they require lots of work on author's part. When I was planning Leonora was I truly able to produce dialogues reflecting 19 INT?! AS IF!

OTOH, the game mechanics takes care of the 3 "hard" (SDC) stats. It's easy to open NI and put STR/DEX/CON to 25 w/o thinking about what monster we are creating - because it does not involve the autor's groundwork; Basically it would be nice that everyone who claims to create a char with 18/00 strength tried to carry a 200 lbs pack... or breaststrocke for 10 km. Just to appreciate what the number in the stat involves.

*off the soap box*

Stats matter primarilly to me as a way of picturing the character. When it comes to game play, stat enhancing items and spells are everywhere; there are no important stat weaknesses that can't be fixed with a minute or two of preperation after resting. I actively hate Cernds 18 wisdom, not because of the minor extra spells it grants him but because he thoughtlessly abandoned his wife and unborn child, never checked up on them again, and then cheerfully abandons the child a second time at the drop of a hat. He's also easilly flumoxed and bullied in various dialogs. He is not written as a "wise" character.

Power in general isn't that important to me either when I look at an NPC; I can fix that with prep work and items. I mainly look for interesting banters, interjections and (to a much lesser extent) side quests.

#26 SConrad

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 06:31 PM

Do not take me wrong: some NPCs I would not play with even if they had all 25s... some I would play with if they had all 8s... and yes, that rule works both ways. I like playing with Cernd, and his 18 WIS does not bother me, and neither does Coran's 20 DEX or Kivan's 18/21 STR.

Stats really do not matter that much - I know it's a heresy, but I have recently created so many PCs to test the mod and for simplicity I went with whatever I can get on the dice roll, ending up with the "vegetable merchants" - and they worked just fine.

But I think that an author has to realize what the stat means to successfully imagine the character - and not in the vague terms of "he is really wonderfully smart".

It is easy with "soft" (WIC) 3 stats - because they require lots of work on author's part. When I was planning Leonora was I truly able to produce dialogues reflecting 19 INT?! AS IF!

OTOH, the game mechanics takes care of the 3 "hard" (SDC) stats. It's easy to open NI and put STR/DEX/CON to 25 w/o thinking about what monster we are creating - because it does not involve the autor's groundwork; Basically it would be nice that everyone who claims to create a char with 18/00 strength tried to carry a 200 lbs pack... or breaststrocke for 10 km. Just to appreciate what the number in the stat involves.

*off the soap box*

Firstly: Don't think that I don't appreciate what you're saying, Domi. You have such wonderful arguments for your cause, that I have to fight hard to counter them (both here and in the Khadion-forum). ;)

Secondly: To your post. I fully agree. To all of it. WIC demands a lot of the autor, as you say. I also believe that there is more to the stats than a number between 1 and 25. The problem is that when I try to reflect my NPC's personality in the stats, you object. So I will therefore ask you to put stats on Khadion based on your own interpretation of him. If you have questions about his personality before setting the attributes, I will answer any questions gladly.

I don't mean to be offensive in any way, but merely asking for your opinion and advice.

Thirdly: I agree with Bob, Cernd's wisdom is too high.

BTW: This means that we'll all have problems writing dialogues with Edwin, Viconia, Immy etc. because of their high stats. At least I do. It is very challangeing to write banters with intelligent and wise people. Especially since you don't know them as well as your own NPC.

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#27 BobTokyo

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Posted 05 July 2004 - 06:50 PM

It is very challangeing to write banters with intelligent and wise people.

I agree with this. It is hard to convincingly write a character wiser than you are, and very hard to write a character funnier than you are. Technical intelligence is easier, as you can just look things up.

The most significant advantage we have as writers is the ability to re-write. We can think over what the character might say, review it several times, tweak and edit it in a way that I'd love to be able to manage in real life. It isn't perfet, but it can help boost the apparent intelignece and wisdom of your characters.

#28 SConrad

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 03:17 AM

14 for strength - lean, rather than heavy-muscular, but strong enough to climb, run etc

About the same as I've thought...

16 to 18 for dexterity  - epitome of grace to as good as it gets

Well, you have my views on it. But I might consider lowing it to 19. Still a little bit more than a human can do, but still not too high. What d'you think?

12 to 16 for constitution - above average, to manage all these women, wine and escapades

Lol! :D Hadn't thought about that.

9 for wisdom - grown up, but below average

He's about 18-20, but who've said he's grown up?

from 10 to 16 for intelligence - average to smart but not smart enough to DC into a mage

He is rather smart, but not smart enough to DC. Here you think the same thing as I have.

16 for charisma - charming but lacks ability to inspire loyalty  and determination of a leader

True. But the charming-part is superhuman. I've actually been thinking of giving him "Charm person" as an innitiate ability. He can charm, lie, decieve and seduce like few other people (only other superhumans). The looks, charm, persuasivness, personal magnetism part is around 20, or more, while the leadership is around 14. Somewhere, you have to compromise to get the "golden-middle-way" (swedish expression).

About Hubelpot, who's going to make the mod?

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#29 Deathsangel

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 06:17 AM

It's subjective and intended as food for thoughts, not critisism; please feel free to add:

Original:

- Character with incredibly convoluted and tragic past
- Character w/o any family left

Uuhhh... within in my mod. Yep Ariena has these problems stated above.

Modded:

- Character with unusual eye colour (violet, green)
- Character with exceptional "stat" or using the highest possible stat for his/her race
- Character who wittily wins over certain NPCs (Anomen *cough*) in every banter
- Character who refuses to speak of his/her past
- Character background/upbringing is unique (demi-vampires, quarter-demons, accidental out-of-worldly creatures, kind-hearted drow etc)


Perhaps Kido a bit, when it comes to unique past.

In Fantasy Fiction:

- Wolf companion/communication with wolves
- Drow


Nope, nothing of that.

So in totall I think my mod is okay in general

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#30 Xaositect_Crayon

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Posted 06 July 2004 - 07:39 AM

mods:
altruism in romances
people who arent evil but highly misunderstood
humans

All
evil necromancers (or even the perception that necromancy is evil... bigots)
Crayons are the most chaotic bananas there never will be....

#31 Xander77

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 09:20 AM

"The PC can shape my morals/destiny with a few words".

Somewhat biowares fault, with Keldorn and Anomen - but at least you can push them in issues they already have serious deliberations with... being able to to live an NPC's life for her, turning to the PC for every choice, is dumb...
Мы должны как раз дать эту хромающую страну к русским. Они awesome! Идет Nader! Кустик и Kerry имеют придурковатые weasels в их кальсонах!

#32 kirkjobsluder

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 02:09 PM

I take the stats thing a bit differently. One of the players handbooks a while ago pointed out that adventurers are exceptional people. As a result, an exceptional stat does not bother me as long as it makes sense. The exceptional strength of Minsc bothers me a lot less than the exceptional dexterity of Viconia. Chloe's dexterity is a bit over-the-top for me though.

#33 kirkjobsluder

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 02:14 PM

Vampires: Overused eurotrash goth posers.

Drow: We get it allready, these guys are evil.

Kill the boss monster: Not bad here and there, but it would be nice to have some plotlines that have the option for an alternative ending.

#34 Xander77

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Posted 12 July 2004 - 06:13 PM

Hmm... about drow:
http://www.giantitp....ootscript?SK=44
Мы должны как раз дать эту хромающую страну к русским. Они awesome! Идет Nader! Кустик и Kerry имеют придурковатые weasels в их кальсонах!

#35 crazyhybrid9999

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 10:42 PM

another thing overused in just about everygame: White People. You know its true. the funny thing is im white and im complaining about too many white people. Also does a half goblin half kobold violate the rules.

#36 Galactygon

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 10:45 AM

Human, Half-elf, Elf NPC's with the ideal aryan appearance and race. 90% of the NPC mods seem to be about those types.

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Edited by Galactygon, 17 July 2004 - 10:46 AM.

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#37 crazyhybrid9999

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 12:58 PM

Right on brother

#38 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 01:10 PM

Heh, it's kind of like complaining that 99% of people in medieval Europe where white...

#39 crazyhybrid9999

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 01:50 PM

Wait I did'nt know that Faerun had a place called Europe. I thought Europe was on Earth somewhere within the prime material plane. *sigh* I guess I just get bored so many white people in games. There is not enough minority represntation in games to make it feel more diverse, ecspecially in such trading meccas ans Baldur's Gate and Amn. Luckily, Balthazar's town (the name escapes me at the moment) has good representations of I guess would be the paralells of the Almohads. Also Why is there only one portrait for a black PC to use in the game. I think there should be some fair representation.

#40 NiGHTMARE

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 02:07 PM

The Forgotten Realms is a fantasy equivalent of Europe, that's why. It's hardly racist though, as the same world has fantasy equivalents of Africa (Zakhara), Asia (Kara-Tur) and North/South America (Maztica), and white people are just as rare in these continents as non-caucassian people are in the Forgotten Realms.

Sure there's trade between the continents of Aber-Toril, but there was also trade between the continents of Earth during medieval times, yet black people were still rare outside of Africa, white people were rare outside of Europe (pre-American colonization times at least), asian people were rare outside of Asia, and so on.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 July 2004 - 02:07 PM.