Karnor

Hmm, my first attempt at a reply got a bit messed up there (and I can't seem to delete/edit it).

Unlike other strength bonuses this is available to non-fighters.

I can't check right now but I'm 99.9% certain this is not the case. I'm pretty sure you *have* to switch to fighter before you can have the conversation that leads to his strength gain.

Actually I think you are probably right about this. I rarely play a lawful character so don't often get Vhailor's strength upgrade.

Although its not really a massive benefit given that you only get a free +1 strength from it (compared to the free +5 you can currently get).

Not sure what you're referring to here. In the vanilla game you can get anywhere between +1 and +3 strength depending on how Lawful you are. I wouldn't be changing that, it would just take you 1 to 3 steps up the progression in the case where that gain takes you through the exceptional strength tree. So if you are due the +3 gain and you are at 18/30, it would take you to 18/99.

Qwinn

I was meaning that free +5 strength you currently get (i.e. in an unpatched game) if you go from 18 or below to above 18 using Vhailor. i.e. +1 strength from Vhailor gets you from 18 to 19, but if you bought that upgrade via level up points it would take 6 levels. And if you got +3 from Vhailor then you would effectively gain 8 levels worth of strength (i.e. still getting 5 'free' points).

It's a -lot- less pronounced, and remember that to "exploit" this you would have to actually get your fighter level higher than either your mage or thief level to get a stat point when you level as a fighter. If you're playing as a mage or thief and you then devote -that- much of your xp so that your highest class becomes fighter just for the sake of skipping that one point boost, you've earned it. I don't think any min/maxer would spend that much xp just to skip one point in the exceptional strength tree, he'd be way better off continuing to spend xp as mage/thief and gaining another stat point -that- way.

That's a lot different from the min-max behavior necessary for what used to be in game, which is just to wait until you get to Vhailor to skip straight from 18 to 19.

There is one slight exception, which is the strength gain provided by Vhailor. Unlike other strength bonuses this is available to non-fighters. So a mage/thief with 18 strength would be better off by switching class to fighter for the conversation (which would increase strength to 18/30), getting +1 from Vhailor (going up to 18/60 strength) and switching back again to presumably retain the 18/60 strength.

Although its not really a massive benefit given that you only get a free +1 strength from it (compared to the free +5 you can currently get). Plus of course a mage/thief would need to have put enough points to get 18 strength in the first place which isn't likely to be optimal. And in any case I'm not sure what you could do to fix it.


As a matter of minor interest (and not really relevant any more to this discussion), I did happen to find the old Dragon magazine in which Gary Gygax had suggested a possible half-ogre PC race. Among various racial adjustments, they would have gained +1 strength, unless they had rolled 18 already in which case they would gain +50 to their exceptional strength roll (with a cap of 00 still). So their maximum strength would have remained the same as a human, but they would have been much more likely to reach the maximum.

Therefore I don't see why fighters need any additional incentive by being able to skip a level once they reach 18.

Look at it this way: in the PS:T implementation, any other class needs to put 16 points into their primary stat to max it out at 25. Fighters need 21 points to do the same thing. That's rather rough. By letting them skip 18/0, which is what the rules say should happen anyway, we are at least softening that penalty somewhat by reducing their total needed to 20 instead.

Qwinn

Depends how you look at it I guess. Another argument would be that fighers have a bigger benefit because they can put 21 points into their primary stat and still get benefits rather than other classes which are restructed to 16 points

And actually its more than that because a mage gets practically nothing for int beyond 19, and a rogue gets practically nothing beyond 18 dex. A fighter on the other hand gets benefits all the way up to 25 strength (and really that's effectively 30 strength!)

I think that what I proposed is a more logical system given the PST mechanics, but your proposal is the best way to blend the PST and AD&D 2ED mechanics. Ultimately there is no clearly correct solution - it's just a matter of personal preference. Whichever system you decide to go for in the end, there is no way I could say you had chosen wrongly.

The Practical Incarnation only bothered with Dak'kon BECAUSE of his sword. It's an extension of his being, I see no plausible reason as to how he could become more powerful and the blade get weaker.

I'd agree with this. To quote the Practical Incarnation:

?Can it be that you not know what he carries in his hand? That blade he carries is shaped by his thoughts. Such a tool, when used properly, could slay the multiverse itself??

Very much indicates to me that the sword should get stronger as Dak'kon's morale increases.

Personally I'm not sure how useful it is to try and follow the AD&D rules too strictly for strength progression.

I always felt that exceptional strength was a poorly implemented system - the difference between a fighter with 17 strength and a lucky one with 18/100 strength was huge. The lucky guy got +2 to hit and +5 to damage. In game terms that was basically the equivalent of having 2 additional levels just for having a single extra stat point followed by a lucky roll. No other stats offered the potential for this much variation.

If you look simply at the bonuses for increased strength scores, there is a pretty linear progression for every step up. Once you get to 16 strength then you either get +1 to hit, or +1 to damage (or both for a few steps) for each increase. So there is always an incentive to put additional points into strength - ultimately the only difference compared to other stats is that you can put more points into it. Therefore I don't see why fighters need any additional incentive by being able to skip a level once they reach 18.

For strength spells, the fighter still gains a benefit because they are capped at 18/100 and not 18/0.

I think this would work fine for TNO because he isn't really one class or the other. He just chooses which he wants to be at a particular moment. Strictly speaking only fighters should gain constitution bonuses to hitpoints of greater than +2 but I'm pretty sure this isn't implemented in PST. And after all, TNO always gets 1d10 hitpoints when he levels up, regardless of which class he levels up as.

It would perhaps be a slight problem for other fighter characters (Dakkon and Annah really) as they wouldn't gain exceptional strength bonuses from item upgrades. But as I've noted above, they still gain a linear benefit from increased strength, and the whole exceptional strength concept seemed poorly thought out in the first place.