Thank you for your attention. Sorry for the inconvinience if it's not the first thread about that... But I really think the question is quite topical and burning.
Jonoleth's alignment
Started by Elan Morin Tedronai, Aug 21 2004 12:23 AM
20 replies to this topic
#1
Elan Morin Tedronai
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Jack of all trades, master of none
Posted 21 August 2004 - 12:23 AM
Well, what are your guesses about Jon's alignment...? Do you think it was Good or Neutral, or rather Good with a tendency to Neutral or vice versa. Obviously after his downfall it became evil. But what? I think it's a Lawfull Evil with a bit of Chaotic tendency. And what are you're thoughts about his ressurection. Will his alignment be changed after the "holiday" in Hell? Or it will remain the same. Will it change after he's redeemed by <CHARNAME>? To Good or Neutral or it ill stay evil...?
Thank you for your attention. Sorry for the inconvinience if it's not the first thread about that... But I really think the question is quite topical and burning.
Thank you for your attention. Sorry for the inconvinience if it's not the first thread about that... But I really think the question is quite topical and burning.
"Try not. Do or do not. There is no try."
#2
Erephine
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leit að lífi
Posted 21 August 2004 - 12:26 AM
Before he was cast out: Lawful Evil.
BG2 SoA: Neutral Evil.
Why, he was never "good" or "neutral".
BG2 SoA: Neutral Evil.
Why, he was never "good" or "neutral".
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#3
-dorotea-
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:01 AM
Before he was cast out: Lawful Evil.
BG2 SoA: Neutral Evil.
Why, he was never "good" or "neutral".
So he was born eeevil? And was LE from the cradle even as a suckling babe?
Btw -- much as I dislike and distrust alignments you will be able to change JI align in one of the 4 endings of this mod...
#4
-Ashara-
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:23 AM
I'd guess - TN or CN gradually eroding to NE when he betrayed his Queen and his people, staying NE after exile.
Edited by domi, 23 August 2004 - 07:25 AM.
#5
Feanor
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The Elven Lord
Posted 23 August 2004 - 07:49 AM
Just for curiousity, why are you so sure he was Lawful Evil before his downfall ?Before he was cast out: Lawful Evil.
BG2 SoA: Neutral Evil.
Why, he was never "good" or "neutral".
#6
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:22 AM
I definitely don't believe he was lawful evil...at least not overnight. If he was...why would Ellesime (who is lawful good) be married to someone with evil intent? Jon was problably the same alignment as Ellesime. He always wanted power and obviously the tree and his arrogance led to his downfall. It was problably a gradual change...he did not show it...but he thought about obtaining more power...he didn't even think it was wrong or evil and of course his sister encouraged him to try and take it (her alignment may not have been evil evil...but I dont think she was a goody goody either...so maybe like CN?) He also may have thought that he could have done good with the new power he would received and felt that he deserved it for all of the hard work he did for his people. He may have also been jealous of Ellesime because she was given power because of her heritage to the Seldarine at birth. Jon may have also felt that since he was married and had such strong connections to Ellesime (and all the reasons above) he was "entitled" to this power. He did not realize or contemplate that he was going to harm his people by drawing power from the tree. Obviously something went wrong during the procedure and he was chasticized severly...by none other than his own wife. After the punishment and exile, he felt betrayed, cast off and even worse...he didnt totally realize what he had done wrong...nor why he was being punished so severly. He hated but still loved Ellesime...two bad combinations. He hated her divinity and the Elven people for treating him this way. After all of his hard work...this is how he has been treated...just to be cast off as a piece of garbage? Since his soul was taken away from him, all that he could think of was these things since he could not feel anything except hatred and revenge. He wanted to take revenge on Ellesime not only because of his punishment...but because she had divinity and she was not punished for it AND she did not have to do any tedious study to obtain it. This is where CHARNAME and everyone else comes into play and where BG2 kicks off. Sure he tortured your character and Imoen...massacred hundreds of people...was a total monster but because he was empty inside, he could not feel any emotion and didn't know right from wrong (this is the type of stuff that a defense attorney would bring up....grrrrrrrrrr 
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#8
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 09:49 AM
It makes for a blatant and indiscriminative white-washing of Irenicus - something that Dorotea to her credit tried to avoid.Plus it makes for a good story!
#9
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:19 AM
I never stated or implied that what I said should be or included in this particular mod. I am just giving my personal opinion of Jon's alignment and nothing else.
#10
-dorotea-
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 10:24 AM
I never stated or implied that what I said should be or included in this particular mod. I am just giving my personal opinion of Jon's alignment and nothing else.
Actually, Andrew, I rather liked your post. No hostilities guys, pwetty pleeese? I know the topic s controversial one, but I enjoy reading these discussions, as far as they don't go out of hand.
Btw -- I don't think A. was whitewashing... and to quote Jon from LR banter with Viconia 'the truth is always a prostitute to the perspective'.
D.
#11
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 11:02 AM
He did not realize or contemplate that he was going to harm his people by drawing power from the tree. Obviously something went wrong during the procedure and he was chasticized severly...by none other than his own wife. After the punishment and exile, he felt betrayed, cast off and even worse...he didnt totally realize what he had done wrong...nor why he was being punished so severly.
If this is not white-washing, this is bleaching. And I am going to be nice subsequently and not comment further.
If this is not white-washing, this is bleaching. And I am going to be nice subsequently and not comment further.
#12
Laufey
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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:19 PM
As a concept, I think alignment sucks. But in answer to the question, I would say he was initially 'neutral' of some kind. Then, as he grew more selfish, he shifted towards evil, which culminated with his initial attack on the Tree.
But in answer to the question, I would say he was initially 'neutral' of some kind. Then, as he grew more selfish, he shifted towards evil, which culminated with his initial attack on the Tree.
#13
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Posted 24 August 2004 - 02:59 PM
Yeah, Domi, I've been reading Bitter Grey Ashes, and it seems Andrew has summed up what dorotea thought about Joneleth BEFORE he became Irenicus anyway, so your comment about it bleaching and whitewashing him seems ill-placed in my opinion. Maybe he wouldn't be Lawful Good, but I think Andrew hit doro's opinion of him near enough spot on. I think he may have been more Lawful Neutral than anything though.
#14
Drugar
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Posted 25 August 2004 - 02:13 PM
Personally, I doubt he was ever Lawful, let's start with that. Aside from racial tendencies (which could mean jack, but don't speak in his favor), a lawful character would not do something as highly illegal as drain the tree of life. If he would, he would use his influence and Ellesime's consort to find some sort of legal way he could use it, but a good (in the quality sense) Lawful character wouldn't go against rules like that.
In the end, he *definatly* wasn't Lawful. Going through an elven city, bombarding everything you see, burning every man, woman and child, and laughing of so gleefully while doing so is more chaotic methinks.
As for good and evil, I think he was good in the beginning. But Bodhi wasn't. I don't know the details (I recall having read them, sometime long ago though) but Jon was a pretty decent guy untill Bodhi got hungry for power. It seems to me, Jon would never have turned to Evil if it wasn't for her.
Slightly Off Topic Sidenote: I always found Bodhi to be the most evil of the two throughout the game. While Irenicus was selfcentered and evil, he didn't have that...lust for killing his sister had. Especially because of the ending, Jon comes across a moge tragical figure, while Bodhi is just an undead killing machine.
In the end, he *definatly* wasn't Lawful. Going through an elven city, bombarding everything you see, burning every man, woman and child, and laughing of so gleefully while doing so is more chaotic methinks.
As for good and evil, I think he was good in the beginning. But Bodhi wasn't. I don't know the details (I recall having read them, sometime long ago though) but Jon was a pretty decent guy untill Bodhi got hungry for power. It seems to me, Jon would never have turned to Evil if it wasn't for her.
Slightly Off Topic Sidenote: I always found Bodhi to be the most evil of the two throughout the game. While Irenicus was selfcentered and evil, he didn't have that...lust for killing his sister had. Especially because of the ending, Jon comes across a moge tragical figure, while Bodhi is just an undead killing machine.
#15
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Posted 26 August 2004 - 03:17 AM
Hey I just followed this thread over from Sorceror's Place and I wanted to agree with Drugar. Maybe he knew full well what he was doing to the tree and his people and still did it for the power, to me this would seem an action of a Chaotic Evil character, one who beleives power is for the strong and anything thy do to obtain it is just fine by them. Not trying to oppose anyones opinions just chiming in with an alternate spin.
Secondly Aufey i think it is, what's this mention of a mod that faces of Edwin against Elminster. I am intrigued, can you send me the info for it at methods_of_madness@hotmail.com
Secondly Aufey i think it is, what's this mention of a mod that faces of Edwin against Elminster. I am intrigued, can you send me the info for it at methods_of_madness@hotmail.com
#16
dorotea
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Posted 26 August 2004 - 05:46 AM
Very little is known to us from the original source. There are many facts that contradict each other. Domi would probably agree with you. I don't. It does not make my opinion any more relevant, but since I made sort of a hobby out of writing about Irenicus and his story I think I can at least present my version of events and hope it will be emotionally compelling enough.
YEs, BGA is coming to a point when Bodhi's meddling is actually exposed.
YEs, BGA is coming to a point when Bodhi's meddling is actually exposed.
Freedom cannot be equated with goodness, virtue, or perfection. Freedom has its own unique self-contained nature; freedom is freedom ? not universal goodness. Any confusion or deliberate equalization of freedom with goodness and excellence is in itself negation of freedom, and acceptance of the path of restraint and enforcement.
Nikolai Berdyaev - Christian Existentialist, Philosopher of Freedom.
The Longer Road mod
Redemption mod
Bitter Grey Ashes
#17
Laufey
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Posted 26 August 2004 - 06:40 AM
I think this one's for me.Secondly Aufey i think it is, what's this mention of a mod that faces of Edwin against Elminster. I am intrigued, can you send me the info for it at methods_of_madness@hotmail.com
The mod isn't exactly about Edwin vs. Elminster, but in my upcoming Edwin Romance mod, the different epilogues will give Edwin a nicer ending than he had in the official ToB one, and that involves some unpleasantness for Elminster. You don't get to actually confront Elminster in the mod though.
#18
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Posted 28 August 2004 - 07:39 PM
i believe in the end Jonnie is nuetral evil, willing to do anything to advance himself, but in the beginning not sure not good maybe true nuetral, could be fighting to protect a village from Gnolls one moment and fighting for the Gnolls the next. I don't think Irenicus is chaotic evil, tends to kill people for no reason other then the fun of it, that's more like BodhiPersonally, I doubt he was ever Lawful, let's start with that. Aside from racial tendencies (which could mean jack, but don't speak in his favor), a lawful character would not do something as highly illegal as drain the tree of life. If he would, he would use his influence and Ellesime's consort to find some sort of legal way he could use it, but a good (in the quality sense) Lawful character wouldn't go against rules like that.
In the end, he *definatly* wasn't Lawful. Going through an elven city, bombarding everything you see, burning every man, woman and child, and laughing of so gleefully while doing so is more chaotic methinks.
As for good and evil, I think he was good in the beginning. But Bodhi wasn't. I don't know the details (I recall having read them, sometime long ago though) but Jon was a pretty decent guy untill Bodhi got hungry for power. It seems to me, Jon would never have turned to Evil if it wasn't for her.
Slightly Off Topic Sidenote: I always found Bodhi to be the most evil of the two throughout the game. While Irenicus was selfcentered and evil, he didn't have that...lust for killing his sister had. Especially because of the ending, Jon comes across a moge tragical figure, while Bodhi is just an undead killing machine.
. Irenicus is not one to let rage controll his actions. It could force him to want to destroy the city but not to expend energy for no good reson that won't help him further. regardless of whether he wants to. in my opinion that is.
#19
-dragonlord-
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Posted 28 August 2004 - 07:43 PM
Guest Posted on Aug 28 2004, 07:29 PM
QUOTE
Personally, I doubt he was ever Lawful, let's start with that. Aside from racial tendencies (which could mean jack, but don't speak in his favor), a lawful character would not do something as highly illegal as drain the tree of life. If he would, he would use his influence and Ellesime's consort to find some sort of legal way he could use it, but a good (in the quality sense) Lawful character wouldn't go against rules like that.
In the end, he *definatly* wasn't Lawful. Going through an elven city, bombarding everything you see, burning every man, woman and child, and laughing of so gleefully while doing so is more chaotic methinks.
As for good and evil, I think he was good in the beginning. But Bodhi wasn't. I don't know the details (I recall having read them, sometime long ago though) but Jon was a pretty decent guy untill Bodhi got hungry for power. It seems to me, Jon would never have turned to Evil if it wasn't for her.
Slightly Off Topic Sidenote: I always found Bodhi to be the most evil of the two throughout the game. While Irenicus was selfcentered and evil, he didn't have that...lust for killing his sister had. Especially because of the ending, Jon comes across a moge tragical figure, while Bodhi is just an undead killing machine.
i believe in the end Jonnie is nuetral evil, willing to do anything to advance himself, but in the beginning not sure not good maybe true nuetral, could be fighting to protect a village from Gnolls one moment and fighting for the Gnolls the next. I don't think Irenicus is chaotic evil, tends to kill people for no reason other then the fun of it, that's more like Bodhi
that was me btw
#20
ven0mast3r
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Posted 06 September 2004 - 02:01 AM
I personally think Irenicus would have been a TN character. I'm assuming that he would have had his logical, scientific way of looking at things long before he was cursed, and he doesnt seem like the type to be swayed towards an extreme, Duch as Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil.
