22 replies to this topic

[NiGHTMARE]

I've never seen anything that supports that. Can you point out specific sources?

I can't find any ATM, but I can think of something to support it: before the Time of Troubles, the power of the Forgotten Realms deities didn't depend on how many worshippers they had... but the vast majority of the non-human deities worshipped in the Realms are also worshipped on other worlds, worlds where a deity's power has *always* depended on how many worshippers he had.

Clearly the only way for a deity's power to simultaenously both depend on how many worshippers he has and *not* depend on how many worshippers he has, is if such things are seperate for each world the deity is worshipped on.

And as I said, if a deity's power depend on the total number of worshippers he has in all existence, the goblinoid deities could (and almost certainly *would*) wipe out most of the other gods without even working up a sweat...

Many published adventures span multiple planes and multiple prime worlds. There is almost never anything mentioned of priests from anywhere, worshipping anyone, as being limited on the various prime worlds.

Yes there is: the already mentioned Spelljammer books. They detail how the priests of almost every human god from the Forgotten Realms (though not any of the Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc deities), Oerth and Krynn, are affected when leaving their home world/crystal sphere, since there is no universal rule that applies to all. Many gods cannot grant any new spells outside their crystal sphere(s), some are limited to 3rd level or lower, and only a few can provide unrestricted spellcasting to priests in other crystal spheres. A few examples:

Beshaba (Maid of Misfortune)

The priests of this goddess experience no change in spell casting ability whether in wildspace or not.  When the sphere is exited, they lose their spellcasting abilities until they reenter the sphere.

Chauntea (Great Mother)

This goddess cannot give her followers spells or power in space, unless they are on a planet, asteroid, or a ship with at least some sort of plant life.  She also gives no power to anyone outside the crystal sphere.  Her priests lose the spells they have, and are unable to gain additional spells once they leave the sphere.

Eldath (Goddess of Singing Waters)

This goddess has power to grant spells only to priests and clerics within the atmospheric environment of a planet.  While off any Class A planet or larger, they are unable to cast any spells, even if their allotment is yet to be used.  One positive note, though, is that whenever a priest lands on a planet, he instantly regains his spell casting abilities.

Gond (Wonderbringer)

Priests of Gond make wonderful helmsmen.  Whether in wildspace, the phlogiston, or in another sphere, they spelljamm as though they were two levels higher.  They cannot, however, cast spells outside the Realmspace sphere.

Mask (Lord of Shadows)

This god cannot award new spells to his priests when they enter the reaches of other spheres.  He can, however, award spells normally to those who are in the Realm's wildspace.  The oddity of Mask is that his speciality priests can cast spells in the phlogiston, but are unable to receive additional spells until their home sphere is again reached.  This spell casting ability in the phlogiston is due to Mask's affinity with the plane where he gains his powers.

Milil (Lord of All Songs)

This god cannot endow his priests with spells once they leave the sphere.  Once they leave the planet of their home, he can grant them only spells equal to less than 3rd level.

Oghma (The Binder)

The priests of Oghma tend not to hire themselves out as spelljamming helmsmen.  They prefer to ride about to explore the unknowns in the Realmspace sphere, the phlogiston, and beyond.  They are able to use spells while in the phlogiston, but they cannot gain new ones until another sphere is entered.  At that time, they are able to gain their full allotment of spells, as long as the priest is there to learn something which increases the knowledge available to all members of the religion.

Umberlee (The Bitch Queen)

Once the speciality priests and the clerics of Umberlee enter wildspace and beyond, they are not granted additional spells. They can land on a planet anywhere in Realmspace to regain their ability to recover spells.  This has greatly reduced Umberlee's area of influence, as well as limited her ability to gain followers in other spheres.

A god with no followers on a prticular world could still use all it's divine abilities on that world, send avatars to that world, and comunicate or grant power to beings on that world. Other powers (of similar or greater stature, or a coalition of lessers) could interfear as always, and such a use of divine abilities would most likely be a waste, but a god could do it all the same.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. As far as I'm concerned, the only way a god could do this is to send his followers to another world, and wait for them to build up enough faith for him to have power in this world. Even then, there's a good chance at least one native deity won't be too happy about it, especially if their portfolios overlap.

Of course, the native pantheon might actually invite a god from another world to come and build up a following, but I somehow doubt that's exactly an every day occurence .

I never suggested that Yoshimo did not recognize the gods/spirits of his homeland, just that he could have recognized most any god he would have come across, with regards to that god's area of influence. Most places in Kara-Tur would be acceptiong of this attitude, esp Shou Lung.

None of the Kara-Turan countries sound as though they encourage replacing the beliefs someone has held all their life with brand new, completely foreign ones.

Several FR deities are not native members of the FR pantheon. The human gods of the Forgotten Realms are highly transient.

You're forgetting that before the Time of Troubles, a deity's power in the Realms did not depend on how many worshippers he had, thus a newly arrived power would have a relatively easy time. This is different than all the other official D&D Prime Material settings (except Dark Sun, which has no gods, and it's specifically stated that no god can have power on that world), since in these places a deity's power has *always* depended on his number of worshippers.

Also, these newly arrived deities usually had portfolios that didn't conflict with those of any existing gods, and the human population was scattered far enough apart that even if similar portfolios did occur, they were far enough away from one another than it didn't matter. In the "modern" Forgotten Realms, they are so many gods and so many human settlements, that a conflict between an old and new god is almost inevitable.

Besides, I was using 'native' relatively . After a millenia or so, I'd think any 'alien' power has been there long enough to be considered 'native'.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 26 April 2005 - 05:29 PM.

[oralpain]

None of the Kara-Turan countries sound as though they encourage replacing the beliefs someone has held all their life with brand new, completely foreign ones.

I don't think Yoshimo replaced anyone, just added more. Thats what I've been saying all along.

Even if he did replace them, far stranger things have happened.

Yes there is: the already mentioned Spelljammer books. They detail how the priests of almost every human god from the Forgotten Realms (though not any of the Kara-Tur, Maztica, etc deities), Oerth and Krynn, are affected when leaving their home world/crystal sphere, since there is no universal rule that applies to all. Many gods cannot grant any new spells outside their crystal sphere(s), some are limited to 3rd level or lower, and only a few can provide unrestricted spellcasting to priests in other crystal spheres.

Thanks for the specifics. I don't use the spelljammer setting (I think it's a bit kooky even for D&D) and as such have little material on it.

I suspect that only pantheons specific to a single crystal sphere (who possibly have an overpower looking over them) have this restriction. Of course an overpower could limit how "foreign" dieties interact with their crystal sphere. I still stongly think that (barring special cases like Athas) a diety not influenced by an overpower would have no restrictions on their abilities anywhere in the prime. This looks to be the case with most species specific pantheons and the more generic human pantheons.

And as I said, if a deity's power depend on the total number of worshippers he has in all existence, the goblinoid deities could (and almost certainly *would*) wipe out most of the other gods without even working up a sweat...

It's also about the strength/quality of belief (acording to On Hallowed Ground) and apparently power of the belivers. Also how much power the gods have to expend seems to be a significant factor. Most of the goblinoid dieties are in far more petty squables than other dieties.

I'm also not convinced goblins, for example, are more populous than humans. You never really hear of groups of goblins with millions of inhabitants, but there are a few human cites on toril that have 7 figure populations.

Dragons are very few in number compaired to humans or demihumans in the forgotten realms (and elsewhere), but their gods are no weaker.

Anyway, anyone can run their game how they see fit. I just wonder if our bickering helped anyone, or just confused them.

Edited by oralpain, 26 April 2005 - 11:36 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Thanks for the specifics. I don't use the spelljammer setting (I think it's a bit kooky even for D&D) and as such have little material on it.

Spelljamming is supposed to be by far the most common method for someone from one Prime world to travel to another. I seem to recall reading that travelling from one Prime world to another plane, and then back to a different world in the Prime can be both extremely difficult and hazardous. Plus if you want to spelljamm, all you need to do is travel to somewhere like Waterdeep and pay for a ticket (or sign up as a crewmember if you can't afford it)... finding the means to go Plane travelling tends to be a lot trickier.

Of course, in BG2 both forms of travel are present - the Planar Sphere with its Athas halflings and Krynn knights, and the spelljamming ship in Ust Natha.

I'm also not convinced goblins, for example, are more populous than humans. You never really hear of groups of goblins with millions of inhabitants, but there are a few human cites on toril that have 7 figure populations.

But for goblins we're talking about every single planet in the Prime Material Plane that has a goblinoid population, whereas humans tend to have a different pantheon for each world - that was my point .

Of course the demi-human races also share more-or-less (not exactly) the same pantheons on every world they reside on, but both elves and dwarves have low reproduction rates. I'm not sure about gnomes and halflings, but most goblinoid races literally breed like rabbits.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 27 April 2005 - 08:19 AM.