20 replies to this topic

[Sir Kalthorine]

This topic, containing a little irritated interchange between board members, has been deliberately split off from the "Vision of Studios" thread due to it serving no useful purpose there. However, as its contents are mainly harmless I saw no point in deleting it entirely.

..........................

Thanks, Jyzabl . I'm proud of what FW has in its favour, and it is those things that will be most important to Spellhold Studios.

Well, those things and the new virtual jam doughnut dispenser...

Edited by Sir Kalthorine, 17 June 2005 - 09:42 PM.

[Shed]

Godamnit! That's a secret!

No, really, we hope to make SHS more than just the continuation of FW .

Edited by Shed, 17 June 2005 - 03:24 PM.

[SimDing0]

How?

[Shed]

No, that really is a secret. Sorry, Sim .

[SimDing0]

Why?

[NiGHTMARE]

1) Because some people like suprises.

2) It will hopefully prevent certain people complaining about things they haven't actually seen yet.

3) To stop certain other people stealing our ideas before we've even managed to implement them ourselves.

4) So if things go horribly wrong, we haven't commited ourselves to anything.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 03:56 PM.

[SimDing0]

3) To stop certain other people stealing our ideas before we've even managed to implement them ourselves.

My apologies. This clears it up entirely. Yes, I understand that there's a major threat of Saradush Watering Hole stealing the forum layout.

[NiGHTMARE]

You were asking why the thing(s) that will make SHS more than just the continuation of FW is/are a secret, so I'm afraid suddenly bringing forum layout into focus makes zero sense whatsoever (since how would a new forum layout make a new forum more than just the cotinuation of another one?).

BTW I assume you're speaking on behalf of the PPG regime, so if you fellows are so against the concept of forum staff keeping secrets, why is it the first thing the majority of the community knew about PPG was when all but one mod disappeared from FWP over night? In fact, why don't you guys simply post all the material for your in-progress mods as soon as you've finished writing it?

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 04:16 PM.

[SimDing0]

BTW if the PPG regime is so against the concept of secrets, why is it the first thing the majority of the community knew about PPG was when all but one mod disappeared from FWP overnight?

Yes, you're certainly well overdue on accusing all of us of hypocrisy to deflect criticism today! Aside from the site only taking a very short time to set up, I think the fact that we were all delbanned the day after the move stresses precisely why it didn't seem like a good idea to say goodbye in advance.

In fact, why don't you guys simply post all the material for your in-progress mods as soon as you've finished writing it?

The QP beta board is here if you'd care for a browse. The beta is available on request if you're interested in providing feedback. And of course, yes, that's entirely the same as running a forum anyway! Woo!

Edited by SimDing0, 17 June 2005 - 04:21 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Criticism really does not work of the criticiser is not only guilty of precisely the same thing, but perfectly happy to carry on doing themselves. It's not our fault if it so happens this applies to almost everything you say; the only person responsible for what you say or write is yourself. The pot calling the kettle black, as they say.

Anyway, so you're allowed to have reasons for keeping secrets, but we're not? Nope. Sorry, but I'm afraid life doesn't work that way.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 04:25 PM.

[SimDing0]

So you're allowed to have reasons for keeping secrets, but we're not?

I think we'll let the public audience judge the validity of "we'd all have been banned and lost our forums" versus "oh no! somebody might steal my fame and my mod!"

[NiGHTMARE]

You've conveniently "missed" (read: purposefully ignored because they don't support your argument) the three other reasons I listed. The four were all merely examples anyway.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 04:27 PM.

[SimDing0]

You're right. I really can't contend with the notion that some people might like surprises. That is absolutely what you want to be basing your forum policy on, and I wouldn't dare question it any further.

No doubt the reasons you didn't list are themselves highly secret.

Edited by SimDing0, 17 June 2005 - 04:30 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

I've begun to notice you always seem to believe everyone most have a single, overwhelming reason for everything they do, with any other reasons they have being relegated to the status of irrelevance; the possibility that someone could have multiple, equally valid (meaning none is more important than the others) reasons for something never appears to enter your head.

I listed four possible reasons, none of which contradict each other, yet still you insist on this idea that we simply must have placed more emphasis on one over the others. Sorry, but this belief of yours makes no sense.

Besides, if you were to force me to chose one over the others, I'd actually say 4) is the most important reason of the examples I listed...

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 04:41 PM.

[SimDing0]

I promise you that however things may appear here, in reality I find each of the reasons equally funny.

[NiGHTMARE]

Here's another thing you might find funny: locking threads like this one and banning troublemakers may be bad policy for forum staff, but there's another policy which is far worse than both of these combined: going to a rival forum and deliberately stirring up trouble.

The FW staff do not engage in this policy, and I would both recommend and encourage the PPG staff put a stop to it as well. Perhaps when they do, the staff of other forums may be more inclined to listen to the PPG staff members' point of view.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 04:52 PM.

[jcompton]

BTW I assume you're speaking on behalf of the PPG regime

While I'm flattered that you consider it a regime, I'm not sure where that leap in logic comes from. Sim seems to have one of those fancy blue "MODDER" tags on his name, indicating that he's one of the fancy blue MODDERs served by the site and with some direct and vested interest in its future.

so if you fellows are so against the concept of forum staff keeping secrets, why is it the first thing the majority of the community knew about PPG was when all but one mod disappeared from FWP over night?

Because they didn't read the copious announcements we posted on all the major IE sites, but instead visited FWP first thing and didn't see the messages left there by the modders because they had been deleted by the administrator? Don't know, couldn't say for sure, I was banned at the time.

Given that, unlike this scenario*, we only had complete control over the new site and not the old, I'd say the changeover was about as rapid and seamless as one could hope for. Hastily Assembled HTML notwithstanding.

3) To stop certain other people stealing our ideas before we've even managed to implement them ourselves.

Yeah, we know you're going to have a wiki. I wouldn't worry too much about it being stolen.

I think the fact that we were all delbanned the day after the move stresses precisely why it didn't seem like a good idea to say goodbye in advance.

Now, Sim. Let's not exaggerate. Neil only deleted and banned three of the eight modders involved!

* - Of course, if SC really did have the old (current) site under his complete control, the move wouldn't be motivated for quite the same reasons as it is. But it's certainly more control than we had.

[SimDing0]

Here's another thing you might find funny: locking threads like this one and banning troublemakers may be bad policy for forum staff, but there's another policy which is far worse than both of these combined: going to a rival forum and deliberately stirring up trouble.

The FW staff do not engage in this policy, and I would both recommend and encourage the PPG staff put a stop to it as well. Perhaps when they do, the staff of other forums may be more inclined to listen to the PPG staff members' point of view.

"Deliberately stirring up trouble"? "Policy"? "Rival forum"? Imaginative. But I like you, so I'm not going to get angry over that now. Perhaps you could take a moment to calmly reflect on those words.

And since I'm going to bed, a serious post. If you, or anybody else, really think it's my style to simply ignore points that don't fit my argument, then I'd be disappointed. I'm finding the whole situation increasingly farcical-- yes, it's evident that nobody's going to explain their intent here, but it's really a huge struggle to take "we're gonna make things much better, but not telling how " seriously.

I'm sure this makes me a horrible bickering person who's stirring up those awful politics in the fresh green pastures of FW, but I fear that's a reputation I'm going to have to live with. Please, do discuss.

Edited by SimDing0, 17 June 2005 - 05:14 PM.

[NiGHTMARE]

While I'm flattered that you consider it a regime, I'm not sure where that leap in logic comes from.

The only way it wouldn't be a regime is if no-one were in charge. Quite clearly that is not the case.

Sim seems to have one of those fancy blue "MODDER" tags on his name, indicating that he's one of the fancy blue MODDERs served by the site and with some direct and vested interest in its future.

Sim seems to believe that everything said by anyone associated with FW represents the official FW position, I'm merely returning the courtesy.

Because they didn't read the copious announcements we posted on all the major IE sites, but instead visited FWP first thing and didn't see the messages left there by the modders because they had been deleted by the administrator? Don't know, couldn't say for sure, I was banned at the time.

Then no-one can complain if the first thing they know about the new FW additions is either seeing them or reading about them in the copious announcement on all the major IE sites.

Yeah, we know you're going to have a wiki.

If you think that's the only addition, I'm afraid you're very much mistaken...

I wouldn't worry too much about it being stolen.

Interesting that you clearly believe I was specifically referring to PPG in regards to stealing ideas. I actually wasn't, but don't let stop you . Guilty conscience and all that, eh?

EDIT: BTW I was actually referring to PPG with the "complaining about things they haven't even seen yet" point, which your sarcastic wiki comment has now proven to be 100% valid. Thanks!

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 17 June 2005 - 06:49 PM.

[jcompton]

Sim believes that everything a member of the FW staff says represents the official FW position, I'm merely returning the courtesy.

"Do the people posting with moderator badges have extra responsibility and weight behind their words?" This has been a subject for debate since the first BBS and the first sysop. It's also not exceptionally relevant to the question. Whatever that is at this point.

Then no-one can complain if the first thing they know about the new FW additions is either seeing them or reading about them in the copious announcement on all the major IE sites.

If you like. Everybody's welcome to try to build anticipation however they see fit. If someone comes along and says they find your attempt to create suspense silly, why get so anxious about it?

I wouldn't worry too much about it being stolen.

Interesting that you clearly believe I was specifically referring to PPG in regards to stealing idea. I actually wasn't, but don't let stop you . Guilty conscience and all that, eh?

Sorry, counselor, you won't be tricking anybody into a guilty plea this evening. Everybody (paying attention to this thread) can now infer that there is or was some plan to set up a wiki. Therefore everybody (paying attention to this thread, and my word there seem to be a lot of reads on it) is at risk to "steal" it.