25 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

Is there any clue in BG 2 which could indicate what Cespenar is ? I am not refering to player's assumption, but if Cespenar offers himself some information about his nature. I don't remember anything like that, but I want to be sure.

[Kulyok]

Warning: a non-serious answer.

An (abandoned?) piece of game dialogue states:

This magical bottle is similar to an Efreeti bottle.  This particular bottle is quite ornate and small, and labeled 'Cespenar' with odd, chiseled letters. It will summon the imp, Cespenar to build and upgrade items for you.

[Feanor]

Warning: a non-serious answer.

An (abandoned?) piece of game dialogue states:

This magical bottle is similar to an Efreeti bottle.  This particular bottle is quite ornate and small, and labeled 'Cespenar' with odd, chiseled letters. It will summon the imp, Cespenar to build and upgrade items for you.

HUH ???

[Kulyok]

Heh, I was interested myself. It seems like the game designers wanted to give you an item instead of a creature, and you would let Cespenar out of the bottle yourself. But they abandoned this line, obviously.

Though it could be cool. Cespenar the Eeeeevil, punished for some Terrible Sins and imprisoned in the bottle for all eternity... nay, All Eternity.

Though personally, I think he's just a source of comic relief. Boooring.

[NiGHTMARE]

He's supposed to be an imp, though his personality seems to be more like that of a mephit.

[Grunker]

Yeah, a mephit is what struck me as being true first because he's not an evil, nasty and cunning imp-like creature.

But as servant of Bhaal I guess Imp makes sense, and Cespenar is just an exception to the rule from above

[NiGHTMARE]

Mephits are evil, nasty and cunning - they just don't act like it when their master is around . Whether Cespenar is a right evil bugger when dealing with someone other than <CHARNAME> and co. is debatable, of course .

[Grunker]

True 'dad

[Lord Kain]

"But you can't, you can't oh great one! You did call poor Cespenar here...you did creates me again! Cespenar cannot die if you are not dead! It would only hurts poor me, hurts! I would much rather serve the great one, oh yes!"

I gather that Cespenar was created as servent to bhaal. When bhaal died Cespenar ceased to exist. When the PC comes to the pocketplane. Cespenar comes back into existence because of the taint of bhaal in the PC's blood.
You could explain Cespenar as being not all there because bhaal isn't all there.

[Grunker]

Of course, but that doesn't explain if he is imp, mephit or something else. Both can be created, called or summoned by wizards (and therefore also deities).

[Archmage Silver]

"But you can't, you can't oh great one! You did call poor Cespenar here...you did creates me again! Cespenar cannot die if you are not dead! It would only hurts poor me, hurts! I would much rather serve the great one, oh yes!"

Somehow he reminds me of Gollum.

[Andyr]

I think Cespenar would fit if he wasn't quite so bad-comic. I'd personally vote for the Solar being replaced by a different sort of Outsider; either perhaps a Pit Fiend as it was Bhaal's realm or a Rilmani of some description (as a general overseer, though they are perhaps more balance-obsessed than an impartial overseer should be).

[Lord Kain]

Andry
the Solar was sent by Ao the overfather. It didn't come out of bhaals realm. Ao wouldn't send a pit fiend or a balor because they'd try to manipulate the PC. So give me another reason the solar should be changed.

[Kulyok]

Solar did manipulate PC, telling them in the beginning of the game that they have no choice in the matter. Game mechanics, I know, but still. Personally, after Adalon and Solaufein, the creature is the third on my "annoying hypocrites" list.

So, Good and Noble (s)he is, but I consider the point of view "she did not try to manipulate PC" controversial, because to my eyes, she plainly did.

[Grunker]

How?

I always found her (although amazingly annoying) pretty objective.

Edited by Grunker, 09 October 2005 - 01:05 AM.

[Kulyok]

I quote from the dialogue file:

PC: I demand to be sent back at once!
Solar: Your demand means little to me. Willing or not, you have no choice in my presence, just as you have no choice in your destiny.

Manipulating? More, literally ordering. "No choice in the matter" - the words have been said.

Solar: Now you must know yourself and your past to reveal your future. Listen and be judged.

(S)he dares to judge. Very interesting.

Solar: Would Sarevok be in your place, now, if but for the smallest twist of fate? Is there a debt between you, then, that is yet unpaid?

PC here does not even have an option to say "None of your business" - they have to answer. Game mechanics? Yes. Manipulating? Yes again.

Now, a very interesting point. PC is Good and Noble, and ready to ascend. Do you think they have a choice now? Ha! As if:

Solar: You have fought against the taint of your father with great vigilance. It is most impressive... impressive enough that I would be willing to remain by your side.
Solar: The power you may claim will bring new enemies, and the attentions of evil gods such as Cyric, who usurped your sire's godly role by the edict of Ao the Overfather.
Solar: I will fight by your side and help you achieve whatever destiny awaits in the planes. Your future is unknown even to the gods, although it will certainly be a great one.

Note that (s)he does not even ask PC's opinion.

EDIT: PC's opinion on whether PC wants Solar to aid them or not. Solar is going to join forces, regardless.

Edited by Kulyok, 09 October 2005 - 01:19 AM.

[Andyr]

Andry
the Solar was sent by Ao the overfather. It didn't come out of bhaals realm. Ao wouldn't send a pit fiend or a balor because they'd try to manipulate the PC. So give me another reason the solar should be changed.

A Solar is not impartial either.

[Andyr]

Andry
the Solar was sent by Ao the overfather. It didn't come out of bhaals realm. Ao wouldn't send a pit fiend or a balor because they'd try to manipulate the PC. So give me another reason the solar should be changed.

A Solar is not impartial either.

[Feanor]

I think you twisted the meaning of those encounters, Kulyok. Personally, I think Ao, knowing that the PC, if victorious, could ascend and knowing that he has the most chances of success of all the other candidates, sent that Solar to evaluate the morality of Charname. Practically, the purpose of those encounters is to determine what place will Charname have in the pantheon. In such a case, it is obvious that the Solar won't allow Charname all the option - after all, he needs those answers.

PC: I demand to be sent back at once!
Solar: Your demand means little to me.  Willing or not, you have no choice in my presence, just as you have no choice in your destiny.

Manipulating? More, literally ordering. "No choice in the matter" - the words have been said.

The Solar himself has no choice. I mean, could he simply send the PC back ? If yes, then what about Ao's commands ?

Solar: Now you must know yourself and your past to reveal your future.  Listen and be judged.

(S)he dares to judge. Very interesting.

And can you tell me why not ? You are speaking about a Solar, the mightiest beings across the planes, except for the gods, the archdevils and the demon princes.

Solar: Would Sarevok be in your place, now, if but for the smallest twist of fate?  Is there a debt between you, then, that is yet unpaid?

PC here does not even have an option to say "None of your business" - they have to answer. Game mechanics? Yes. Manipulating? Yes again.

Sorry, but an answer "none of your business" would be an attitude of a spoiled child from Charname. There is simply too much at stake for the Solar to accept this type of answers. As I said, the answers will determine his place in the pantheon.

Now, a very interesting point. PC is Good and Noble, and ready to ascend. Do you think they have a choice now? Ha! As if:

Solar: You have fought against the taint of your father with great vigilance.  It is most impressive... impressive enough that I would be willing to remain by your side.
Solar: The power you may claim will bring new enemies, and the attentions of evil gods such as Cyric, who usurped your sire's godly role by the edict of Ao the Overfather.
Solar: I will fight by your side and help you achieve whatever destiny awaits in the planes.  Your future is unknown even to the gods, although it will certainly be a great one.

Note that (s)he does not even ask PC's opinion.

EDIT: PC's opinion on whether PC wants Solar to aid them or not. Solar is going to join forces, regardless.

The Solar says "I am willing", not "I will join you no matter what you decide".

Also, notice something : the Solar compels the PC to answer his questions, but he does not make any suggestion, after he hears the replies, he does not say if it is bad or good. The Solar is not manipulating the PC because he does not try to influence his alignment.
On the other hand, a fiend would certainly try to drag the PC towards evil or even use him to further his goals in the Lower Planes.