10 replies to this topic

[GeN1e]

Via magical means or smth else. And if yes then is there a way to prevent success of such divination? Like the of way that Non-Detection works.

I mean - can it be done that mage gets an item and is unable to find ourt (or even suspect) it's a falsification?

Edited by GeN1e, 15 May 2007 - 02:20 AM.

[vilkacis]

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to do. There's no way for the player to find out what an item does unless you tell them (or it's obvious when they use it). If you want an item that looks like it does X while it does Y, you just have to write a description that claims "item does X" and make sure Y is not too obviously "not X".

The "identify" spell only reveals the text in the "full item description" field - what that description actually *says* is up to you.

[GeN1e]

I'm not entirely certain what you're trying to do

My own fault I think, I should have said more clearly.
I'm not referring to IE's mechanics but to AD&D. For example a character wants to get an old item. Another character replaces original thing with the fake one and uses AD&D's rules/spells to cover his manipulations. Can the first one determine he was duped? I don't have too much materials at my hand and not sure if such magic exists.

Edited by GeN1e, 15 May 2007 - 08:28 AM.

[berelinde]

So this is more of a PnP question, and you don't really want to know how you'd do this in game or modify an existing in-game spell to do it?

In that case, Delusions of the Mind might have been better, because folks there know their PnP, but while you're here, you could probably use some variation on Legend/Lore in a 2E campaign, or an appropriate knowledge skill check for 3E. You probably wouldn't need to resort to magic.

Or, perhaps a standard divination type spell would work.

Edited by berelinde, 15 May 2007 - 08:37 AM.

[GeN1e]

Delusions of the Mind might have been better

I feel you're correct.
Can someone please move this topic there then?

[SConrad]

Moved.

[vilkacis]

Could you elaborate? Who is doing this, and who is the victim?

You're pretty much screwed if you're trying to fool a high-level arcane caster (I don't really know/care much about divine casters, but I imagine they also have somewhat reliable ways of detecting such things). It's very difficult to trick a mage who has reason to suspect that you're doing it and wants to know the truth badly enough. I'm pretty sure I have seen "detect age" spells, but I don't know exactly where. There are other ways to detect fakes, though. Or how about this one:

Analyze Dweomer (Divination, Artifice) 8th
Range: 10 yards
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 round/2 levels
Casting Time: 8 hours
Area of Effect: 1 object or creature
Saving Throw: None
Subtlety: +7
Knockdown: None
Sensory: Medium visual/small audio
Critical: None
This spell reveals to the caster all spells, enchantments, dweomers, and magical properties 
present in one creature or object. One property, spell, or power is revealed each round in 
approximate order of when the spells were cast or the properties were acquired. (If the DM 
doesn't know which spells were placed on the subject first, a random roll for order of discovery 
is fine.) The caster has a base 50% chance to discern the existence and identity of a particular 
spell or property, +2% per level to a maximum of 99%. The only enchantments that remain 
inscrutable to analyze dweomer are those surrounding artifacts or relics.

A 16th-level wizard finds an unknown wand and decides to use analyze dweomer to study it. 
The DM knows that it's a wand of fire, and he decides that the spells enchant an item, fireball,
 burning hands, and wall of fire were used to create the wand, in that order. In the first round, 
the wizard has an 82% chance to identify enchant an item; in the following round, an 82% 
chance to discover fireball; in the next round, an 82% chance to perceive burning hands; and 
so on, for all remaining enchantments. Note that the DM could have decided that any rare or 
unusual materials or processes used to create the wand would also be revealed as if they were 
spells.

After the wizard analyzes one object or creature, the spell ends, even if its duration has not 
expired yet. Casting this spell is physically taxing; the wizard must pass a system shock 
check or be exhausted and unable to do anything but rest for the next 1d8 hours. While 
this spell is most frequently used in the comfort and safety of the wizard's laboratory, a 
mage could also cast analyze dweomer to study the magical seals and barriers on a portal, 
to determine just how a companion has been cursed, or to examine a potential opponent fordefensive spells.The material component for this spell is a tiny lens of ruby or sapphire set in a small golden loop. The gemstone must be worth at least 1,000 gp.

On the other hand, if you're dealing with someone that powerful, you most likely aren't powerless yourself. Outside of the rules, the GM - or in some cases, the modder - has the final say.

If the would-be dupe is suspicious enough to Wish (or even Limited Wish) for the truth, though, he's bleeding well going to get it.

[berelinde]

Which ruleset, by the way? 2E?

[GeN1e]

Both are powerful (nearly equally) wizards. John wants to get an artifact but doesn't know much about it, only that it's pretty ancient thing. Jack recently found out John's intention and wants to fool him and replace the true artifact with the fake of his own. It's needed to lead John in another direction. John knows nothing about Jack and his ill plans, so he won't smell a rat. The only problem here is that during the studying his prize John can discover that item is far younger than it possibly can be (no surprise, Jack has got it made just recently, not a thousand years ago). Should Jack be afraid that John will discover he was duped by someone?

Or perhaps Jack can take another ancient trinket and reenchant it? Will John discover that enchantments on his thing were made recently? As I've said he knows nothing about Jack's intentions.

Has John a real chance to learn that someone (most likely wizard) has played with item before him? Today it's possible to find out an item's age via nuclear analisys.

[vilkacis]

If it's truly an "artifact" by D&D rules, it's going to be very difficult to fabricate a convincing fake. For instance, the spell I posted won't even work on a true artifact ("the only enchantments that remain inscrutable to analyze dweomer are those surrounding artifacts or relics"), while a copy will easily reveal its enchantment.

It all depends, though. What does John need it for? If it can convincingly perform the task he needs this artifact for (...which it probably won't, since it's nearly impossible to duplicate the full power of an artifact), he might not care to check if it's the real thing. If he wants to study it, though, he would certainly be able to discover that it's not the real thing. As I said, I'm quite certain there are "detect age"-type spells printed in official material, and there are several ways to analyse an item's properties. (If nothing else, a powerful wizard who deals with ancient items will most likely have created his own spells to help date and identiry such items.)

I only speak AD&D second edition, however, so this may not necessarily be true for other systems.

[GeN1e]

So, unlikely then... I develop a story for a mod and thought about falsification twist. Not a big deal at least, there is another way to implement my wishes. Thanks for help.