Does anyone have any experience with combining AD&D with any sort of wargaming? Thing is, one of my characters has, during the course of the game, become the queen of a very fragmented, feudal kingdom and, not being very popular due to her hardline politics, will face a civil war soon. Thing is, I don't want to just make up all the battle results (and anyone suggesting I play out thousands of soldiers fighting one another in AD&D mechanic will be poked with a fork) and I'd rather that she works for it...
So does anyone have any experience in combining AD&D with wargaming for big battles?
AD&D + wargaming
Started by Ismail, May 16 2007 01:12 AM
3 replies to this topic
#1
Ismail
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Squirrel Pride Worldwide!
Posted 16 May 2007 - 01:12 AM
Lahinguväljal joome, raisk!
#2
Bluenose
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The gnome-sage of Ral Worcester
Posted 16 May 2007 - 02:36 AM
Does anyone have any experience with combining AD&D with any sort of wargaming? Thing is, one of my characters has, during the course of the game, become the queen of a very fragmented, feudal kingdom and, not being very popular due to her hardline politics, will face a civil war soon. Thing is, I don't want to just make up all the battle results (and anyone suggesting I play out thousands of soldiers fighting one another in AD&D mechanic will be poked with a fork) and I'd rather that she works for it...
So does anyone have any experience in combining AD&D with wargaming for big battles?
I've sometimes done this, though not all that recently. There was a set of rules for large scale battles called the Battlesystem published by TSR. It was available both in 1st and 2nd edition. Personally I didn't think it was very good, since it was complex, it took a long time to run, and it wasn't really suitable for large scale battles anyway. I think it's available to download as a PDF from RPGNow and Paizo.
I actually wrote a set of rules specifically for the war I was running, which was on quite a small scale - any force larger than about 50 men was classified as an army. I also used a set for a much larger war, which was part of the campaign background, but this was a war with armies in the tens of thousands on each side and since my campaign world is relatively low-magic I could run the battles using a straight set of historical wargaming rules without much modification.
Nowadays I think I'd use a set of rules called Hordes of the Things if I had to simulate a larger battle. They're quick and easy to use and also a lot of fun, and personally I like the sort of results you get from them. Alternatively there are lots of sets you could try available free on the net, I know of several sites dedicated to collecting links or copies of them. Google for free wargames rules and try a couple of those sites.
Back from the brink.
Like RPGs? Like Star Wars? Think combining the two would be fun? Read Darths and Droids, and discover the line "Jar Jar, you're a genius".
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
#3
cmorgan
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Posted 16 May 2007 - 04:06 AM
Spells and Swords? or was it Swords and Spells? Let me look...
Found it!!! Gary Gygax published a booklet caled "Swords and Spells", for miniatures rules on a 1:10/1:1 scale, for use with Dungeons and Dragons. It is c. 1976, but I bet it is still around, or someone has dropped it out on the net - I used it alot, because I liked big battles; it covers what happens when your 1:1 hero figurine faces off against 1 to 3 1:10 orc units...
it is a simplified strategy system that provides tables where X number of orcs do Y amount of damage (statistical average) against opponents of type Z using AC A. So if you want to know statisticaly how that band of 10 orcs was effected by your single 3rd level fighter attack on them, or your mounted charge of 20 L4 Knights on them (They are smeared puddles of goo, by the way) or if you have a character who decides to dive headlong (alone) into battle with over 200 orcs (you make some fair headway, until the sheer weight of numbers leaves you with -1247.5 hp, and they never, ever recover a scrap of your body), you can.
This is D&D stuff, so no HLS system, and old at that, but it is fun, simple, and pretty effective. It even has "ranks deep" damage calulation, all in uder 42 pages (4.5 x 8, booklet fold no less
)
The best thing about it is that it would give you an idea of how to approach setting up your own logical system. Because even if you use a rules system, you are definitely going to want to take a God-like hand in determining big plot point outcomes - the campaign might not survive a player untrained in combining unit tactics and understanding of the D&D equivalent of combined forces;
Player: I send my front rank of knights charging across the wide, grassy field to crush those orcs with a swift blow, and send them screaming back where they came from!
DM: *sigh* Right. (rolls morale check). OK, the orcs stand strangely silent. Your knights charge across the fileld, and gloriously slam into the front ranks of the orcs... except the illusion dispells as the lead knight touches it, revealing empty space. And a huge area that has been altered by the prepared "Stone to Mud spell".
Player: I call them back! I call them back!
DM: *double-sigh* Your magic users message the unit leader (rolls again) and they are able to rally about 40 of the 200 knights you sent; the others have gone headlong into the mess in a confused tangle, only to find that the spell is now reversed, and they are entombed in rock And the air is filled with arrows as the orc archers pick off anyone still moving.
Player: I cast dispell magic! Get those guys out of there!
DM: *triple sigh* Well the magic users come within range to cast the dispell magics, but since you didn't send anyone to protect them, or perhaps set up a box of stinking clouds around the area to mask them, or even tell them to use thier invisibility spells, or just plain scout the woods on your right with your rangers or your Griffin Riders, or provide air cover, the spellcasting isn't going so well. What with the archers shifting targets, the advancing orcs closing in from the left side of the glade, the giant spiders bearing down from them from the woods on your right in the suddenly darkened battlefield (gotta love that spell) and the wyverns now feasting on parts of them and randomly dropping body parts across the doomed knights, your spellcasters are wiped out. *scratches his head* The good news is that your clerics ignored you, followed their instincts, and cast bless and remove fear (you can thank me later) on the rest of your army, so they didn't bolt at the sight of your elite troops being trown forward to their death. I would watch for the Thieves Guild representative though; you know he is an assassin, and the Thieves Guild will probably not be so happy about helping pay for a massacre of your mounted units - no profit in a lost war. A battlefield messenger runs up to you, waving a copy of "The Art of War", and relays the Queens demand that you withdraw immediately.
Player: That's not fair! I would have known about that stuff!
DM: Nope. You failed your intelligence check, plus you ignored the NPC Griffin Rider leader's suggestion, plus you just force marched a whole army for 6 days and nights straight, then threw them headlong into battle without prepping - what do you think this is, The Lord of the Rings?
Player: ...
DM: It is ok, Tell you what... lets go get some beer, take a quick gander at some stuff on basic tactics online, and forget tonight ever happened. It was all a dream. Yeah - that's it... it was a revelation from Helm! About what would have happened if we hadn't prepped you with some basic ideas about uses of offensive and defensive magic, combinations of ranged and non-ranged attacks, formations, air cover, battlefield scouting, and some idea of what it is like to walk for 6 days and nights with around 90 lbs of gear on your back, no sleep, and only some magical berries to eat.
Player: ok.
Found it!!! Gary Gygax published a booklet caled "Swords and Spells", for miniatures rules on a 1:10/1:1 scale, for use with Dungeons and Dragons. It is c. 1976, but I bet it is still around, or someone has dropped it out on the net - I used it alot, because I liked big battles; it covers what happens when your 1:1 hero figurine faces off against 1 to 3 1:10 orc units...
it is a simplified strategy system that provides tables where X number of orcs do Y amount of damage (statistical average) against opponents of type Z using AC A. So if you want to know statisticaly how that band of 10 orcs was effected by your single 3rd level fighter attack on them, or your mounted charge of 20 L4 Knights on them (They are smeared puddles of goo, by the way) or if you have a character who decides to dive headlong (alone) into battle with over 200 orcs (you make some fair headway, until the sheer weight of numbers leaves you with -1247.5 hp, and they never, ever recover a scrap of your body), you can.
This is D&D stuff, so no HLS system, and old at that, but it is fun, simple, and pretty effective. It even has "ranks deep" damage calulation, all in uder 42 pages (4.5 x 8, booklet fold no less
)The best thing about it is that it would give you an idea of how to approach setting up your own logical system. Because even if you use a rules system, you are definitely going to want to take a God-like hand in determining big plot point outcomes - the campaign might not survive a player untrained in combining unit tactics and understanding of the D&D equivalent of combined forces;
Player: I send my front rank of knights charging across the wide, grassy field to crush those orcs with a swift blow, and send them screaming back where they came from!
DM: *sigh* Right. (rolls morale check). OK, the orcs stand strangely silent. Your knights charge across the fileld, and gloriously slam into the front ranks of the orcs... except the illusion dispells as the lead knight touches it, revealing empty space. And a huge area that has been altered by the prepared "Stone to Mud spell".
Player: I call them back! I call them back!
DM: *double-sigh* Your magic users message the unit leader (rolls again) and they are able to rally about 40 of the 200 knights you sent; the others have gone headlong into the mess in a confused tangle, only to find that the spell is now reversed, and they are entombed in rock And the air is filled with arrows as the orc archers pick off anyone still moving.
Player: I cast dispell magic! Get those guys out of there!
DM: *triple sigh* Well the magic users come within range to cast the dispell magics, but since you didn't send anyone to protect them, or perhaps set up a box of stinking clouds around the area to mask them, or even tell them to use thier invisibility spells, or just plain scout the woods on your right with your rangers or your Griffin Riders, or provide air cover, the spellcasting isn't going so well. What with the archers shifting targets, the advancing orcs closing in from the left side of the glade, the giant spiders bearing down from them from the woods on your right in the suddenly darkened battlefield (gotta love that spell) and the wyverns now feasting on parts of them and randomly dropping body parts across the doomed knights, your spellcasters are wiped out. *scratches his head* The good news is that your clerics ignored you, followed their instincts, and cast bless and remove fear (you can thank me later) on the rest of your army, so they didn't bolt at the sight of your elite troops being trown forward to their death. I would watch for the Thieves Guild representative though; you know he is an assassin, and the Thieves Guild will probably not be so happy about helping pay for a massacre of your mounted units - no profit in a lost war. A battlefield messenger runs up to you, waving a copy of "The Art of War", and relays the Queens demand that you withdraw immediately.
Player: That's not fair! I would have known about that stuff!
DM: Nope. You failed your intelligence check, plus you ignored the NPC Griffin Rider leader's suggestion, plus you just force marched a whole army for 6 days and nights straight, then threw them headlong into battle without prepping - what do you think this is, The Lord of the Rings?
Player: ...
DM: It is ok, Tell you what... lets go get some beer, take a quick gander at some stuff on basic tactics online, and forget tonight ever happened. It was all a dream. Yeah - that's it... it was a revelation from Helm! About what would have happened if we hadn't prepped you with some basic ideas about uses of offensive and defensive magic, combinations of ranged and non-ranged attacks, formations, air cover, battlefield scouting, and some idea of what it is like to walk for 6 days and nights with around 90 lbs of gear on your back, no sleep, and only some magical berries to eat.
Player: ok.
#4
Ismail
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Squirrel Pride Worldwide!
Posted 17 May 2007 - 01:10 AM
Thanks for the tips and hints... I'm checking out Hordes of the Things and hope it'll work :-)
Lahinguväljal joome, raisk!
