20 replies to this topic

[Adia]

I was just wondering what options are out there for romances for evil female PC? So far all I can see is the Edwin romance mod. Is there anything else? Is there much change in the CN Anomen romance?

[Gabrielle]

Tsujatha Melalor is an evil romance mod. Go check it out.

[Tempest]

Tsujatha will only romance good-aligned characters, though, if I'm remembering it right. The Imoen Romance add-on may qualify, depending on how you look at it-you can definitely romance Imoen if you're evil, so long as you're nice to *her*. And I think there was an Angelo mod out there who would romance an evil Charname-he's CN, but that's as close as you're likely to get.

[berelinde]

If you're looking for an evil male NPC to love your evil female PC, you've got Edwin. If you're looking for a neutral male to love your evil female PC, you've got CN Anomen, Angelo, and Xan. If you're looking for an evil male NPC to romance your good female PC, you've got Tsujatha.

There are really surprisingly few evil NPCs. There are fewer romanceable ones. Many have been attempted, few completed. Don't know why this would be.

But I'm forgetting!

Does it have to be BG1 or BG2? There are two evil males to romance in IWD2, as part of the IWD2 NPC Project. Diriel isn't fussed about alignment, although it is unlikely that a good female would be OK with his racial hatred of anything non-elven. Rizdaer is an evil drow male. They've both proven to be rather popular.

In fact, if you're into roleplaying evil parties, IWD2 NPC is the mod for you. It has two evil romanceable males and one evil romanceable female.

Edited by berelinde, 05 February 2008 - 05:26 PM.

[Adia]

Yeah, I was specifically looking for BG2, and the more evil side of things (rather than neutral). Most of the mods I've found lean towards good (well, most of the game leans that way!) but I was curious to see if there was anything that I'd missed.

[SConrad]

Moved to IE Modding Discussion.

[Kulyok]

Try the Longer Road for ToB. I think it may suit you.

[jcompton]

(Kulyok's stealing my material.)

Anyway, I always get intrigued by this sort of thing because it's unclear to me exactly what people want from "an evil romance." Somebody who blows kisses at you but mercilessly breaks the fingers of your enemies? Really, even Aerie will beat the shit out of people for you. So there has to be something else to it, but I'm not sure what...

For instance, when I think about "how would I approach An Evil Romance?" I generally end up with an outline revolving around a character who is self-centered and selfish, and very possessive of the PC, and just adequately complimentary and supportive of her to retain her favor.

(But then the natural response is, "But, Jason, you've already done Kelsey!")

It's certainly easy enough to point out various real-world examples of "evil romances"--abusive spouses who keep the other in check with just enough carrot behind the big stick, and who have whittled their opposite number's sense of self-worth down so far that they feel they're blessed just to have what they have, etc. But that's very difficult to credibly pull off in a CRPG setting because very, very few want to play a PC who is that weak and flawed. (And the game's general plotline and vibe don't encourage it, either.) If anything, the game (and the fact that it is a game) more encourages the possibility of a romance where "the PC is the evil one."

Edited by jcompton, 06 February 2008 - 07:09 AM.

[Kulyok]

For instance, when I think about "how would I approach An Evil Romance?" I generally end up with an outline revolving around a character who is self-centered and selfish, and very possessive of the PC, and just adequately complimentary and supportive of her to retain her favor.

But, Jason, you... oh.

(But Kelsey plunges PC into the warm colorful water, so he is not entirely Evil!)

Anyway, it's a word-to-word description of Diriel or Rizdaer of Domi's IWD2 NPC Project. Edwin Romance, too, though he becomes a bit on the "saving kittens" side after Bodhi. I am not sure about Tsujatha, but from the mod's description, it looks like it. So it looks like you're all set.

It's certainly easy enough to point out various real-world examples of "evil romances"--abusive spouses who keep the other in check with just enough carrot behind the big stick, and who have whittled their opposite number's sense of self-worth down so far that they feel they're blessed just to have what they have, etc. But that's very difficult to credibly pull off in a CRPG setting because very, very few want to play a PC who is that weak and flawed. (And the game's general plotline and vibe don't encourage it, either.)

I tried this in Xan's unbonded path(the second part of the game); the passive-agressive part, at least - and I think I have succeeded. And then again, there's Haer'Dalis, Eldoth and Edwin in Romantic Encounters, and chaotic neutral Coran Romance for BG1.

[jcompton]

From what I recall of Tsujatha, I don't think it really delivers whatever it is people are asking for when they ask for an "evil romance". He's statted evil on the character sheet and disintegrates other disagreeable NPCs in dialogue and so forth but I don't think he really came across as "evil."

[Tempest]

It all depends on how you look at evil when it comes translated into an interpersonal context, I think. Some evil characters, like my Xarana idea, are completely cold-hearted and incapable of forming genuine emotional bonds. Others can be the most cruel, vicious, borderline insane people who can nonetheless have truly heartfelt bonds with other characters. It all depends on how you view their particular flavor of evil.

[Tempest]

I believe it's entirely possible for an irredemably evil character to have genuine emotional bonds with others. Take Xarana, my pet Shadow Druid ofAuril, for example. She utterly hates civilization and everything and everyone who would support it-she's directly responsible for the deaths of more than a few people, and enjoys watching enemies of nature die. She is cruel, she is filled with hatred, and her heart is frozen in ice-with one exception. She genuinely loves and adores her mother, despite their ideologies being violently at odds. Her love is every bit as pure and selfless as a knight's love for a beautiful maiden, but it does not change the fact that Xarana wouldn't blink at killing an innocent child to send a message to that child's parents, or simply to tie up loose ends.

[berelinde]

...Some evil characters, like my Xarana idea, are completely cold-hearted and incapable of forming genuine emotional bonds. ...

...She genuinely loves and adores her mother, despite their ideologies being violently at odds. Her love is every bit as pure and selfless as a knight's love for a beautiful maiden,...

But you said...
... never mind.

Maybe it isn't that "evil" people are "broken" so that they can't form bonds with others. Maybe it's just that "good" people treat strangers with the same concern that more "evil" people show to those that are close to them.

[the bigg]

Er... don't Irenicus and Ellesime pretty much shatter the "evil cannot love" stereotype?

[Tempest]

Berelinde, the difference with my character example is that she is incapable of forming new emotional bonds-she is very much capable of the emotion of love, but is so blinded by her cold hatred of, well, just about everything that the idea of falling in love is quite simply beyond her. So I suppose what I was trying to get across is that evil characters can be capable of love just like anyone else-it's simply the personality and beliefs underlying that love that give it shape. Korgan, for example, could potentially fall in love. Would it be the same thing as, say, Nalia falling in love? Not quite-the emotion is the same, but it has a very different context. Korgan might chop off a kitten's head and present it as a token of his affection to someone he loved. Nalia would consider a beautiful flower or perfume a suitable gift.

Good and evil characters alike feel the same emotions-they just tend to have different manifestations.

[Rabain]

I think the problem here is anyone can *say* their character can't do this but can do that. Does this have any relation to real world considerations of evil? Probably not.

I think it is what others believe when they read your work that will show the success of your intent or not.

I assumed Irenicus was not truly evil when he was with Ellisime, Ellisime spurned him (at some stage in their relationship...maybe he was too clingy)...he turned sour and went *medieval* on Suldenesslar...but even then blackisle/bioware did a good job of showing that he still retained some emotion for her...with all the clones and the whatnot.

I don't think I would consider him truly evil, his evil is rather focused and elven superiority possibly doesn't lend itself well to those mindsets who have turned to the darker path. In my mind it is his elven nature that actually pushes him along the dark path, he grew up thinking he would live almost forever, then its taken away and he essentially turns into a sulky human child (I want it, its mine by right, screw you I'm taking it all. Now even you can't have it! So there!!)...but he still cries for mommy (ellesime) in the recesses of his own mind .

But thats really enough about the imaginary psyche of a fictional character...

[Azkyroth]

There is an argument that was repeatedly made (and which I for the record diasgree with) that if an evil character develops the geniune bond etc, he stops being evil, ie experiences an alignment shift.

I don't buy this either; as part of the non-joinable cast of Arkalian I'm writing several characters who can be said to genuinely love one another, if not in quite the sort of way people usually mean, but whom no sane person would consider non-evil. I'll write more on the general principles here when I can organize my thoughts.

[Neferit]

From what I recall of Tsujatha, I don't think it really delivers whatever it is people are asking for when they ask for an "evil romance". He's statted evil on the character sheet and disintegrates other disagreeable NPCs in dialogue and so forth but I don't think he really came across as "evil."

Yeah, agree. He is supposed to be evil, but in most situations he reacts as neutral or maybe even good from what I remember. And trust me - when it comes to Tsujatha's content/character, I remember many things