6 replies to this topic

[razlyubleno]

2. How exactly do I get a thief to backstab an enemy and then not get killed by the other baddies that are nearby?

Haste. The trick (or atleast, the trick I use) is to have very good Hide in Shadows score, haste the thief, backstab, run around a corner, and then hide again (if it doesn't work, quaff a potion). Rinse and repeat.

Also, if the party is present, you can usually deal some serious damage and then move the thief away without the enemies chasing him too far. Rinse and repeat.

Considering that most thieves have average hitpoints and are lightly armored, are they really suited to this type of combat?

Don't think of it as combat. Deal damage, run. Deal damage, run.

Won't most thieves just be better off attacking from distance with a bow or some such?

Sometimes. Depends what kind of battle it is. Plus you can mix tactics, you don't have to choose backstab or bow.

Does someone need to have the stats of Yoshimo (and should even he be doing it?) or be a F/T like Montaron to engage in backstabbing?

Fighter/thief does the best damage. I've found it pretty worthless to backstab with pure thieves.

Is it only worthwhile to backstab in certain situtations, such as when there are only a couple of enemies rather than a big group?

The best situation for it, is when you are against a small party of tough enemies. Clerics and mages especially, you can take out very quickly with a good backstab, so they won't be much support to their party once the real action begins.

As well as the answers to these questions, I'm very interested to hear which NPC thieves people use to backstab,

I only use protagonist for this, usually. Kensai/thief does insane damage.

Regarding allocating thief skill points, is it really feasible to put points into Hide in Shadows and Move Silently

Hide in Shadows is more important for backstab than Move Silently. You can skimp out on MS a little.

razly

Edited by razlyubleno, 28 March 2009 - 09:35 AM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

2. How exactly do I get a thief to backstab an enemy and then not get killed by the other baddies that are nearby?

Well you hide the thief with some invisibility producing effect, like hide, then you walk the thief behind the monsters back, and then attack... if the first attack lands, the target takes extra damage according your thief level... and if the monster is not immune to backstab.

To avoid the rest of the enemies from splattering your thiefs parts around the incident location, you need to hide the thief again, invisibility potion does this well, usually... or you can run away with the boots of speed. And if the enemy has casters, and you time it right you can give a target/bate the melee attackers attack while the rest of the party hides and goes after the casters and get easy kill of the casters and then the melee guys... whole group that way.

Now, because there is not much in the way of potions/rings in the invisibility department in BG1/Tutu, it's worth noticing that one really should put quite many thief skill points in the stealth/hiding... or go with a mage->thief dual for invisibility scrolls/spells... if one goes all out for this tactic.
And speaking of potions, the extra strength potions are great, and there are way too many of them in BG1/Tutu not to use, so use them with the stealth and backstabbing.

Edited by Jarno Mikkola, 29 March 2009 - 04:14 AM.

[Zyraen]

I have only played BG2, no Tutu and no BG1... so limited notes here.

>> 1. Which of them is suited to this backstabbing lark?
- I never use Yoshimo, but I hear that he is pretty decent when dualled to a Fighter. bar that I don't think he is really that good.
- Ironically, I find a non-thief, Valygar, an excellent Backstabber for most of early SoA. he loses effectiveness later on due to his backstabbing factor not increasing significantly. You have to experiment with different weapons, I believe Corthala Family Blade is unsuitable for backstab, though Celestial Fury is an excellent backstabbing katana.
- Jan Jansen is a TOTAL PAIN IN THE ASS for Backstabbing for most of early SoA. He is a pain to stealth initially, keep stealthed, his strength is low, his Thac0 stinks, his backstab factor is low (due to being multiclassed) and dies too quickly. That being said, he is an excellent survivalist thief (see end of post discussion on Magic Using Thieves)
- with Strength giving items (Hill Giant Str belt is a boon to most thieves), almost any Thief can be used reasonably
- there aren't really any other candidates, usually use the PC to do so. Strength enhancements are a great plus
- F/Ts etc are excellent backstabbers. If you want enhanced effects, I suggest going with Fighter dualed to Thief.
- Assassins are wonderful at high levels. It is worthwhile to get an Assassin PC, put most of your (fewer) points in your Stealth, and just have fun stabbing away. Using high STR items help

>> 2. How exactly do I get a thief to backstab an enemy and then not get killed by the other baddies that are nearby?
>> Considering that most thieves have average hitpoints and are lightly armored, are they really suited to this type of combat?
- In general, Thieves should hit and not get hit.
- Potions of Invisibility are a dime a dozen, you can use them. Note that due to this, Thieves should generally NEVER drink Healing potions when getting struck while running away, because it can prevent you from using an Invisibility Potion in a timely manner. meantime there's also Rings of Invisibility to help out.
- If you are good with timing wait about 3-5 seconds, open with another Backstab on same / another opponent. The timing wait is if you intend to pull your Thief out of combat with invisibility YET again (ie a new round must begin), and it also gives your enemies time to "lock on" to other visible party members. good damage overall.
- Haste is a bonus, but I don't find it worth to use a slot for it. similar to Hate potions
- Boots of Speed make Backstabbing broken. you can backstab run stealth backstab run stealth through most of SoA on an F/T solo.
- a good Shield is helpful for F/Ts especially if you need to avoid being struck by ranged weapons (not very often though...)
- Shadow Dragon Armor is an excellent piece of Armor. If I recall right it is usable by most Thieves.
- White Dragon Scales (only in ToB) is the utter best armor you can stealth in (-2 AC!!!).
- in any case, you can use both of them with Use Any Item.

>> Won't most thieves just be better off attacking from distance with a bow or some such?
Generally, everyone other than Tanks will be better off that way. If something is hitting Tanks easily (ie npcs ridiculous low Thac0, bosses, etc) everyone is better off shooting.

>> Is it only worthwhile to backstab in certain situtations, such as when there are only a couple of enemies rather than a big group?
It is almost always worth it to backstab a Mage in a group enemy situation, or a Mage in a solo situation IF their back is approachable (ie they don't have their back to a wall).
If you need to skip the True Sight, most Mages take a decent amount of time to cast it. So Boots of Haste is good to close the gap before the spell completes, or a Haste spell / Haste potion. Alternatively, there is the excellent Cloak of Non-Detection
Other situations are when an enemy, especially within a challenging group, can be instantly killed by a Backstab. I almost never backstab an opponent that cannot be killed instantly by it, unless it is a Boss. It is also not worth it to backstab opponents that will survive and pop healing potions.

Basically its a "value for risk" thing. Think of the Thief Backstab as a surgical strike to remove the greatest threat that is under normal circumstances hardest to reach, quickest to erect defences, and has the lowest hitpoints / armor ( highest chance of dying instantly ). This identifies enemy mages almost to a T. You can't stoneskin if you die before seeing anything.

An occasional thing I do, very rarely, is to use two Thieves to backstab a target, when I'm certain one cannot do the job. This can be used on tough warrior enemies, as the first thief backstabs, the target turns around, and the other thief (standing in front of the target) now has the target's back facing him and backstabs again, finishing the enemy or leaving him near death. For those capable of magical defences (mages), have the Thief with lower Thac0 to strike first, and then pause as the hit lands and have the other backstab also.

>> Regarding allocating thief skill points, is it really feasible to put points into Hide in Shadows and Move Silently in EasyTutu (assuming there's just one thief in the party)? Shouldn't I just max-out Find Traps and Open Locks instead?
Generally, I will try to have 2 Thieves in the party, one a damage dealing thief the other a Lockpicking Thief (Imoen is excellent for this role). The Damage Dealing thief will put points into Hide In Shadows only until it reaches a decent value. I usually slow putting all points in at a value of about 85, and usually HoS of about 115 is pretty much max, though if conservative 95 is good enough.
I have not found Move Silently of any significant value in general (especially with boots of haste). If it is bothering you, remember to always array your whole party beyond sight of the enemy, then send your Backstabbing Thief in LAST. I think I have finished games with a Move Silently score of maybe like 30 ?

Most of the Thief attributes should NEVER be maxed out to any degree. Pickpocket ideal value is only about 90 or so (Gloves of PP so indecently easy to get...), Open Locks about 80 I think, and Find Traps about 85. I can't remember exactly, but there's a BIG hint Bioware gives you - simply look at Imoen when she joins you in Spellhold. Add 10-15 to her Open Lock / Find Traps skill value, and thats almost exactly the amount you require for the ENTIRETY of BG2 and ToB. If as you mention, you don't mind temporary boosting skills (like popping Master Thievery potions occasionally, equipping Rings of Lockpicking / Danger Sense), you can stick with Imoen's Thief Skill values.

The only thief skill that is reasonably useful through most of the game and I feel is worthy of maxing out, is Detect Illusions, maybe at about 150-200 Increased value in this appears to reduce the time it takes to detect invisible enemies and mage defences, very handy against Thieves and Mages, which make up most of the challenging non-boss encounters in BG2. Only Keldorn can compete with this ability, since idiot True Sight takes forever to cast.

If you wish lessons in using a Thief Backstabbing for great fun, you can consider using a Mage/Thief. It seems absurd in a 6 man party until late SoA, but they have excellent effects if you are playing a 1-4 man party. While soloing as a Mage/Thief may be easy by most solo standards, it certainly is fun as heck.

To give an idea
- before the battle, buff your M/T with Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and you can throw in Protection from xxx Weapons if you like.
- Stealth, and open with a Backstab. Yes, your enemies can see you, but you are now almost impervious to all damage, despite being in the middle of all your opponents.
- I find non-self-damaging spells at this point very fun. Sunfire is among the best candidates for this, it fries most of your opponents in an instant.
- Alternatively, you can simply Stoneskin, Mirror Image and Tenser's Transformation before going in. Then chop them to bits.

This is just an idea, easily varied. You can go in "naked" and instant cast Stoneskin on your Mage/Thief after the Backstab, or Prot from Magic Weapons.
Or have a few buffs, do Summons, and then pop Invisibility (and let them focus on your pets) before Backstabbing again.
You get the idea Its all good.
Oh and UAI allows you to do all of this with ANY thief, provided you have enough scrolls.

BTW, Staff of Magi is utterly broken for the purpose of getting a Thief out of trouble. Even more amusing is that it is usable not only by Mage/Thief, but courtesy of UAI, by ANY THIEF! but later in game of course.

Final Reminder : equip STR items! (remember you can toss them to another party member while you're running away...)

Edited by Zyraen, 28 March 2009 - 11:08 PM.

[Jarno Mikkola]

>> Regarding allocating thief skill points, is it really feasible to put points into Hide in Shadows and Move Silently in EasyTutu (assuming there's just one thief in the party)? Shouldn't I just max-out Find Traps and Open Locks instead? ...
Most of the Thief attributes should NEVER be maxed out to any degree. Pickpocket ideal value is only about 90 or so (Gloves of PP so indecently easy to get...), Open Locks about 80 I think, and Find Traps about 85. I can't remember exactly, but there's a BIG hint Bioware gives you - simply look at Imoen when she joins you in Spellhold. Add 10-15 to her Open Lock / Find Traps skill value, and thats almost exactly the amount you require for the ENTIRETY of BG2 and ToB. If as you mention, you don't mind temporary boosting skills (like popping Master Thievery potions occasionally, equipping Rings of Lockpicking / Danger Sense), you can stick with Imoen's Thief Skill values.

The only thief skill that is reasonably useful through most of the game and I feel is worthy of maxing out, is Detect Illusions, maybe at about 150-200 Increased value in this appears to reduce the time it takes to detect invisible enemies and mage defenses, very handy against Thieves and Mages, which make up most of the challenging non-boss encounters in BG2. Only Keldorn can compete with this ability, since idiot True Sight takes forever to cast.

I agree in most parts but the DI, but the reason is that the game is actually broken... in the skills. As the top value of a skill is 127. This is cause the the game engine is binary based, and so... the value can be from 0 to 127 and if that is over went the numbers start all over again from 0, so 128=0... so the 150 points in DI is actually 23% detect invisible, not a good investment. The value also includes the race factor and possible armors negative effects. So

Binary match:
111 111 111 111 + 1 = 000 000 000 000 = 0, as the number goes out of the calculators value range. This is the same in the normal decimal math, but the calculations are usually restricted to none negative values, or the negative value is represented with an "-" mark, and not with a 999... value. Yes, -1 is actually 999 999 ... 999.

[razlyubleno]

As the top value of a skill is 127. This is cause the the game engine is binary based, and so... the value can be from 0 to 127

A byte can hold 256 different values. The correct range is -127 to 128 for signed bytes, and 0 to 255 for unsigned bytes.

This is the same in the normal decimal math, but the calculations are usually restricted to none negative values, or the negative value is represented with an "-" mark, and not with a 999... value.

Either method is possible when doing the math by hand.

For computers, there are many different ways to represent negative numbers in binary. The simplest is to use the most significant bit to signal whether the number is negative or not, leaving you with only a 7-bit range. But it would be entirely up to the engine to decide if the most significant bit is a sign bit, since the sign is not stored in a real sense.

IE might use Two's Compliment, though. I'm not sure.

razly

[Zyraen]

I agree in most parts but the DI, but the reason is that the game is actually broken... in the skills. As the top value of a skill is 127. This is cause the the game engine is binary based, and so... the value can be from 0 to 127 and if that is over went the numbers start all over again from 0, so 128=0... so the 150 points in DI is actually 23% detect invisible, not a good investment. The value also includes the race factor and possible armors negative effects.

In this case, I would be inclined to disagree. I usually have my Thieves and other Stealth using classes stealthing effortlessly in plain daylight with Hide In Shadows of about 135 and 140 (I tend to throw points in there when I am at a loss what to do), and without any gear-based or potion-based stealth modifiers (except Race modifiers, I don't really know them).