9 replies to this topic

[Ulb]

I'm trying to fix a possible glitch in my werebear kit for BGT players.

 

Right now, the werebear spell of my kit is granted at level 3.

This means that if a character between levels 1 and 2 loses his ranger status (e.g.: becomes a fallen ranger), he would never gain the ability to shapeshift. And let's face it, shooting peasants in the head is mighty evil, but probably not a valid cure for lycanthropy.

 

This is of course easily fixed by already applying that ability at level 1. The only problem is: Even thought the 'first' melee effect has a level 3 requirement, the spell will still show up between level 1 and 2, somewhat buggy, with no effect and a seemingly random spell icon.

 

To fix this, I simply added another melee effect with no level requirement and set it's icon slot to 'unknown (0)' (instead of innate).

 

Now, this seems to work fine, but since I don't really know what the heck I'm doing, Id like to get a second opinion whether 'unknown (0)' will indeed work (or whether it will suddenly show up in some strange slot I didn't even know about..).

 

Thanks in advance

[Ulb]

O Modder, Where Art Thou?

[The Imp]

Traditionally there's no need to hide a spell. As you can give the spell at level 3, and the fact that the player disembowels their ranger state by being too evil makes them heretics... so there's no role playing experience I could give that would give a forgiveness in such a large portion of the characteristic of the role of the given individual.

 

And yeah, being evil might not be a cure for lycanthropy, but it is to the sort that this kit gives, as a blessing... look what happens in BG1 Tales of the Sword Coasts mission... if you don't actually cure the state in time... everyone becomes enemy of the player character.

Edited by The Imp, 07 April 2013 - 02:01 AM.

[Ulb]

Traditionally there's no need to hide a spell. As you can give the spell at level 3, and the fact that the player disembowels their ranger state by being too evil makes them heretics... so there's no role playing experience I could give that would give a forgiveness in such a large portion of the characteristic of the role of the given individual.

 

Well, I think that there might be a chance for the players to lose their ranger status, without being 'too evil'.

For example, if they help Silke and kill the jewel merchants, this might be enough of a reputation loss, to knock them off their ranger status. In that case, the cause wouldn't have been evil but naivety. (If you play with an exp. reduction mod, you might still be level 2 by then.)

 

But even if the player decides to become really really evil for no 'good' role playing reasons, I still wouldn't want to 'punish' their 'bad role playing' by taking their shapeshifting ability away.

 

 

And yeah, being evil might not be a cure for lycanthropy, but it is to the sort that this kit gives, as a blessing... look what happens in BG1 Tales of the Sword Coasts mission... if you don't actually cure the state in time... everyone becomes enemy of the player character.

 

That 'blessing thing', you got that wrong.

This isn't a kit for rangers that learn to shapeshift into werebears because they are rangers, this is a kit for rangers who are, plain and simple, also werebears; from the beginning.

 

As for the Werewolf Islands mission thing, there are a few major differences:

 

First, in D&D werewolves are naturally evil, while werebears are naturally good.

Second, the game assumes that none of your party was a lycanthrope before the incident and therefore, none of you has control over your actions on your first change. Thus, there would be a lot of shredding and tearing and later that day everyone would hate you and your party. Honestly, I think this is more of a 'game over' solution to ensure the developers didn't have to deal with the possibility of werewolf characters later in the game.

 

Anyway, thanks for your input, but I'm not convinced. I still want to hide that spell and still want someone to tell me whether 'my way' is a good way to do that.

[The Imp]

And yeah, being evil might not be a cure for lycanthropy, but it is to the sort that this kit gives, as a blessing... look what happens in BG1 Tales of the Sword Coasts mission... if you don't actually cure the state in time... everyone becomes enemy of the player character.

That 'blessing thing', you got that wrong.
This isn't a kit for rangers that learn to shapeshift into werebears because they are rangers, this is a kit for rangers who are, plain and simple, also werebears; from the beginning.

And who gave this sort of ranger the ability to become a werebear ? The explanation in D&D always revolves around the gods or magic, why ? Because there's nothing natural about it, which is why the stories are actually in the D&D books... still you should see that the god in the stories are actually the creators of the story or a representation of them as they are the ones controlling every action ever taken, within the rules of the storytelling.
Welcome to the real reality, you need to make the player stay on the good path for them to gain the bonuses from your kit...

[Ulb]

And who gave this sort of ranger the ability to become a werebear ?

 

Well, if they are natural lycanthropes, that would have been their mother. (Unless one assumes Bhaal was somehow a lycanthrope while fathering them. )

If they are infected lycanthropes, it would have been the lycanthrope who bit them first...

 

The explanation in D&D always revolves around the gods or magic, why ? Because there's nothing natural about it, which is why the stories are

actually in the D&D books... still you should see that the god in the stories are actually the creators of the story or a representation of them as they are the ones controlling every action ever taken, within the rules of the storytelling.

 

Certainly, as for the first 'source' of lycanthropy, the gods are the creators. Thought that is no difference for most of the races of Faerûn, including humans.

As for the power of the gods and their influence, I think you overestimate them. I said it before, I'm in no way a D&D expert and this is solely my own interpretation of the D&D rules, but metaphysically (outer planes wise) the gods are nothing more than incorporations of different aspects of the human life and mind. Depending on which edition you look at, they are just very powerful beings with high stats, and even if they were more powerful, all of them have counterparts, which, to a certain degree, 'neutralize' each other.

 

Welcome to the real reality, you need to make the player stay on the good path for them to gain the bonuses from your kit...

 

This is probably just a matter of one's point of view, but I just don't want to 'make' them stay on the good path.

 

As I see it, a ranger can change its alignment just like everyone else can ( actually, there are evil rangers in D&D.. ) and there is no good (D&D) explanation for them to be 'cured' of lycanthropy because of that.

 

(On a related note: I believe, that according to the actual D&D rules, a lycanthrope who willingly changes into his/her wereform would automatically assume that forms natural alignment, e.g. a werewolf becomes chaotic evil and a werebear becomes lawful/chaotic good, once they willingly change to their forms.

Thought since the vanilla shapeshifter kit ignores that rule, because apparently the druid has gained so much of control over her wereform, I see no reason why the werebear ranger wouldn't be able to do the same...)

[The Imp]

And who gave this sort of ranger the ability to become a werebear ?

Well, if they are natural lycanthropes, that would have been their mother. (Unless one assumes Bhaal was somehow a lycanthrope while fathering them. )
If they are infected lycanthropes, it would have been the lycanthrope who bit them first...

Ha, you fell deep into this trap, that I set just for you...


See as the creator of this mod, you, 'Ulb' are the one that gave the Bhall spawn the power to shapeshift to the werebear... as a god, creator and as an author.
Hih hihihihiih, yep it's hilarious but also more than truth, now as a mod author you are tied to the rules that the game and it's moding tools has set out for us(and thus a limitation of your power), one being that as a ranger, the player no matter what you try need to keep their alignment unless they wish to have a fallen ranger to keep their Kit, as that's replaced by another (fallen ranger kit, yep it can also be modified... ). The other one being that there's no good way to hide a spell until a set spell level ... well, unless you wish to make the spell have a chance of happening that can also be 0% at level 1. Yep, just came up with that.

As for the other stuff, if you wish to say that a werebear is the good aligned wereform, then I don't think the evil gods would have the power to grant that to their subjects. And neither should you.

What comes to the Bhall's child, it's abilities come from both it's parents, but they don't need to be proportional nor traditionally lore tied, but they need to work within the game rules that the engine gives us.
For example the game has a bhallspawn that is a full on dragon, presumably it had a parent that was not bhall as the other parent, especially within the time limitation the game gives, it's less than 100 year old and still it's as large as the other dragons... so the parents lives don't actually matter as much as the concept that the character is there.

[Ulb]

Uhh.. well.. your argumentation seems a little arbitrary to me, form time to time.. no offense intended.

 

As for the game limitations, if it can be done, it is obviously not a limitation. Letting 'fallen rangers' keep (some) of their former kit's abilities can be done, its not a big deal.

 

Hiding a spell seems to be doable, but of course, the whole thread was about asking whether my method had some unwanted side effects, so I can't yet say it is a completely smooth way to do it.

(Note: If it was a fighter class kit, one could simply move the icon to the spells slot and the spell would indeed be perfectly hidden. So in that case it definitively can be done. )

 

Anyhow, I guess I must thank you again, for making me think about that 'real lycanthrope vs. blessed by some god' thing.

 

The funny thing is, that in it's early incarnations, the werebear kit was exactly as you described it. It wasn't about lycanthropes but about rangers who got 'blessed' and learned how to turn into a werebear.

 

While the story changed, the level at which the ranger was supposed to gain her shapeshifting ability didn't.

 

Now, thanks to you, I had to ask myself: 'If it is indeed true lycanthropy, then why wouldn't the character be able to shapeshift (at least a little) from the very beginning?'

 

The answer to this is; There is no good reason. The (former) level 3 shapeshifting ability isn't that overpowered and so there is no need to postpone it to level 3 (balance wise).

 

So I'll just make the ability obtainable at level 1, problem solved!

[The Imp]

So I'll just make the ability obtainable at level 1, problem solved!

Darn bastard, you took the wrong path damn you... :hostile-ly shakes the ice cream shake, which the Imp then eats with a smile on his face:
Erhm you do know I was just joking about the trap and so forth, in the form that it wasn't meant to be hostile towards you... ?!?
Erhm by the by, do you have any intentions to use more than one form off the werebear animation ? As you could give different bonuses to different avatars and call them a little different... see the druids polymorphic forms. Where it would be bear based but the amount might differ and thus the effects.

Edited by The Imp, 07 April 2013 - 10:01 AM.

[Ulb]

No worries, I didn't feel any kind of hostility from (or towards) you at all.

 

As for different forms, I assume you have something similar to Werewolf: The Forsaken in mind? In that case, no I don't.

I originally thought about adding a true animal form (e.g. bear), the hybrid form and possibly a larger hybrid form, to stay as true as possible to the D&D rules; but in the end I think the hybrid form really is enough. (Thought you can always choose to install the light version, which uses the normal brown bear animation instead of a werebear.)