24 replies to this topic

[Bill Bisco]

Three mod ideas I've had recently.

 

1. Kicked out dead party members should Leave Bodies that can Later be Ressurected.

 

Currently if you kick out a dead party member, their body is permanently left on the ground.  Instead, it would be nice if they left a permanent corpse on the ground that will not disappear.  The party can later pick up this corpse and click use item to cast raise dead or resurrection or bring it to a Priest for that former party member to be returned to life. 

 

Upon being returned to life, a dialogue will give the option to re-recruit that party member or to let them go.

 

Ideally, we would create a script such that a Corpse Item would be created (1 per valid NPC), so that vanilla and modded NPCs could benefit. 

 

A chunked NPC would not leave a body, but an option to ressurect them via new resurrection spell, Wish, or Priest should be available and added to dialogues.

 

2. Charmed / Dominated Creatures Joining the Party

 

Charmed / Dominated creatures should be allowed to be spoken to and join the party and travel with the party to other areas.  When the spell wears off, the creature would leave the party and go hostile again.

 

3. De-Railroading BGT and EET

 

The game forces you along plot points during Baldur's Gate.  In BG1, You can't kill Gorion in Candlekeep (insta death).  You can't kill Duke Eltan and you have to accept his quest.  You can't just kill Sarevok in the Duchal Palace, you're forced to find his diary and present it. 

 

 

In BG2, you can't kill Bodhi or Aran Linvale too early (Arkanis Gath or Game Breaks ). 

 

A few adjustments to the game and story which removes anything forcefully forcing the player to go down certain plotlines and allowing them to still complete the game would be great.

Edited by Bill Bisco, 06 September 2015 - 07:00 AM.

[Lollorian]

 In BG1, You can't kill Gorion in Candlekeep (insta death).

I'd love to know how you think the game should proceed if you manage to kill him (and the insta-death was removed) - short of creating a completely new set of main quests

[The Imp]

- short of creating a completely new set of main quests

Or even ... How would the charname even survive the encounter with Sarevoks party ?
Not to mention the fact that the charname just killed the only reason he is let out... or did the old castles just let the murderers out just for the sake of it... yeah, remember the chapter 6(7 in BGT) ?

You can't just kill Sarevok in the Duchal Palace

Well you are welcome to make him killable, just make sure not to remove the script he has, ouh or the wards he will have in the temple(with SCS)... yeah the fights going to be pretty much impossible now.

or Game Breaks.

How about you give a good answer to the question I asked in the thread and then we can talk about making it happen ?

Edited by The Imp, 06 September 2015 - 09:12 AM.

[Lollorian]

I'm sure CHARNAME could handle a few Watchers and monks if he can snuff out Gorion like that As for the Sarevok encounter with the Ogres, I'm thinking why would he even bother? He only recognized CHARNAME because of Gorion in the forest - and then he proceeded to infilitrate Candlekeep while CHARNAME is lollygagging out in the Sword's Coast.

 

The only direction CHARNAME has at that time is to meet Khalid and Jaheira - and that's because Gorion told them to.

 

Kill Gorion before leaving -> No motivation to meet Khalid & Jaheira -> No need to go to Nashkel -> No need to solve Iron crisis -> No need to infilitrate Merchant's League -> No meeting Sarevok -> No knowledge that CHARNAME is a Bhaalspawn

 

Yeah you essentially blocked out ToB

[The Imp]

The only direction CHARNAME has at that time is to meet Khalid and Jaheira - and that's because Gorion told them to.

Kill Gorion before leaving -> No motivation to meet Khalid & Jaheira -> No need to go to Nashkel ...

But thre is the necromancer and the halfling thief/fighter... gold is a good or at least a motivation enough. The game is not as simple as you remember it my good old friend. Ouh and the invisible wall that streches from the BG's bridge to the Sword Coast, the western forests and the southern mountain range. Oh, yeah sorry for breaking the 4th wall there.

Well if the charname is capable enough to kill his way from Candlekeep after Gorion, and Sarevok had his eye on Gorion, he would probably keep his eye on the charname.

[Bill Bisco]

 In BG1, You can't kill Gorion in Candlekeep (insta death).

I'd love to know how you think the game should proceed if you manage to kill him (and the insta-death was removed) - short of creating a completely new set of main quests

 

A couple of things on my mind.

 

1. CHARNAME should be able to escape Candlekeep one way or another.  The fact that you can't leave through the front door is due to railroading and wanting you to go with Gorion.  Adding an exit to the front of Candlekeep is appropriate and one back into Candlekeep is too.  The front door could be locked.  CHARNAME could use open locks, steal the key from the guard, charm the guard, or kill the guard.

 

CHARNAME could leave Candlekeep before talking to Gorion.  Gorion would catch up with CHARNAME and could continue on with CHARNAME.

 

2. People have long wanted to be able to help Gorion as well.  I suggest a following modded Change. Create a New Area that is a copy of the Area where Sarevok ambushes Gorion and CHARNAME.  the sides of the area encompass only what is seen there (aka smaller). 

 

After Sarevok says "I'm sorry that you feel that way old man" and Gorion says "Run child, get out of here!", CHARNAME gets the Dialogue and gets a chance to choose.  The options are

 

A. Run

B. Fight

 

If A is chosen, then CHARNAME runs away and the auto battle cutscene happens as normal.

 

If B is chosen then AI Scripts take over the fight.  The scripts are written to match the cutscene as best as possible.  CHARNAME can join the fight and risk death and potentially kill Sarevok.  Enemies will prioritize Gorion and then CHARNAME.  At any time, CHARNAME can go to the edge of the map and click the scroll wheel to exit. 

 

IF CHARNAME exits, then the Chapter One intro "The dawn is especially cruel this morning" will fire off. 

 

If CHARNAME fights and dies, then Game Over as usual.

 

If Sarevok is killed, then we get the Sarevok Death Movie and a modified version of the below unused String

 

 

Lost Epilogue-Text (chptxt8.2da)

String-Ref 20631

 

The struggles you have faced are over for now, and you shall climb from this vile place victorious. Your actions here will ease the burdens of many, although most will never know the name of their benefactor. Nonetheless, the citizens of the Sword Coast can rest soundly this night, even as you lay troubled in whatever inn you find yourself. Sarevok's death is not the closure you had hoped for, and many questions remain unanswered. There will be more trials to come, but they are for another day... Such is your lot, child of Bhaal.

 

Then we'll get a cutscene of a new Scholar, Irenicus, making a visit to Candlekeep and CHARNAME finding himself/herself drugged.  Irenicus will say "Sleep Now".  Then we transition to BG2 and CHARNAME wakes up in Irenicus's duengon.

 

Perhaps upon being amgushed by Sarevok and Crew, CHARNAME could be

 

3. If CHARNAME kills Gorion in Candlekeep.  CHARNAME could stay or leave.  When leaving Candlekeep, we do the same mini area as above.with Sarevok ambushing just CHARNAME now.

 

Sarevok's text will be different.and will try to ascertain who CHARNAME is.  CHARNAME can...

 

A. Tell the truth

B. Lie (Good Charisma Needed)

C. Run Away

D. Fight

 

If CHARNAME avoids or runs away from a Fight with Sarevok and crew, then the game proceeds as normal with text modified to reflect that Sarevok is hunting CHARNAME but that Sarevok did not kill Gorion.  References in BG2 should be accordingly modified if CHARNAME and not Sarevok killed Gorion.

 

If CHARNAME fights and defeats Sarevok, cue Sarevok's death cinematic as above and have Jon Irenicus show up early as above.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

I've always assumed that Gorion's ward was free to come and go already.  It's a library, not a prison or strategically important fortress.  Yes, preventing Charname from leaving prematurely is railroading.  However, I also assume that Sarevok would be able to ambush solo Charname just as easily as Gorion-escorted Charname, and would summarily slaughter him.

 

A 1st level Charname would contribute nothing to the Gorion fight.

[Bill Bisco]

Strictly speaking Sarevok's party has no ranged weapons save Flame Arrow from Tamoko.  CHARNAME can comically run in circles if needed.

 

I disagree that  1st level Charname would contribute nothing.  A Lucky Charm Person, entangle, or sleep could make a big difference.  CHARNAME can pelt with ranged weapons for as long as it takes, use a familiar to kite enemies, and lots of things. 

 

It would be a chore, but hardly nothing.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

By definition, that encounter should be unwinnable for Charname.  I'm a veteran rules lawyer, but there's no way any DM would allow a 1st level character to be the deciding factor in that battle.  Exploiting the engine is not anything worth pursuing, imo.  Sarevok vs Gorion 1-on-1 might be a decent fight, but we'd need to come to a consensus on Gorion's class(es) and level(s).

[Bill Bisco]

In our case the DM is the game engine.  In a more realistic situation, anyone, player or monster would be nuts to forsake ranged weapons.  I'd love to see a monster script that involves them kiting PCs, that would be hilarious.

 

Gorion's original stats give him 16 Wisdom and 18 Intelligence.  Since in BG1 he casts Cure Light wounds, I'd be fine with him being a Cleric 3 / Mage 9 Dual Class.

 

I forsee it be hard keeping Gorion alive even with improved scripting.  Certainly casting Stoneskin would be appropriate.  Of course if Gorion uses improved tactics so should Sarevok. 

 

I expect most people would still have to run away from Sarevok.  There's only so much ammunition that can be bought at Candlekeep and hitting Sarevok and doing decent damage is still hard.  Some people want to have the chance to fight and kill him at least. Some people import higher level characters and/or fake sleep to kill hundreds of Watchers to gain levels and believe they should be able to kill Sarevok, and they'd be right.

[The Imp]

Strictly speaking Sarevok's party has no ranged weapons save Flame Arrow from Tamoko.  CHARNAME can comically run in circles if needed.
 
I disagree that  1st level Charname would contribute nothing.  A Lucky Charm Person, entangle, or sleep could make a big difference.  CHARNAME can pelt with ranged weapons for as long as it take

You can disagree, but looking at the figures, say if Gorion is not there, Tamoko's Flame Arrow would kill the charname. Simple, easy, and deadly. The 1 point damage ...it's normally a 5d6 spell at the first level, so you take avarage of 15 points of damage, you are not going to survive that.
And by the way: There's even a thread in this forum where someone switched the spells to the original, and hups, they got killed by it.

[Bill Bisco]

Per this site  it is 1-6 piercing and 4-24 fire, save for half fire.  so average piercing is 3.5 damage and average fire is 14 so yeah 17.5 average damage on a failed save and on a successful save it is 10.5 damage total. 

 

This is why I love my Fighter/Mage/Cleric .  Cast Find Familiar and (except for imps), get 12 extra HP.  This would be enough to survive the accurate damage Flame Arrow (on average).

 

So, yes it would kill several CHARNAMEs, but not all of them.

[The Imp]

Cast Find Familiar and (except for imps), get 12 extra HP.  This would be enough to survive the accurate damage Flame Arrow (on average).
 
So, yes it would kill several CHARNAMEs, but not all of them.

I got a question about that... does the original game allow such a solution ? Aka, does the Candlekeep actually contain a Find Familiar scroll to learn the spell/cast from ?
NO. Ouh, and you need the Boots of Speed to actually fire your bow against melee targets as you can't walk away fro them other wise, they'll try to hit you... so.

And that spell was not made for your special character for this one time occurance, but to offset the usefulness in BG2's levels. Try this with Spell Revisions mod, or the Salks Familiar mod. You are dead. Very.
Now, you could consider that as you have quite an opposing force and no one to really back up on yet, that there's a good reason for the game to contain restrictions such as these, when it has them. I would recomend that you move on to more greener pastures(into moding ideas that are not exactly as opposed). Now of course that is just a suggestion, you can waste your own time as you like.

Edited by The Imp, 06 September 2015 - 09:19 PM.

[Almateria]

I'm actually all for the concept

Anything that makes the game less linear by giving it more sense is welcome in my book

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Anything that makes the game less linear by giving it more sense is welcome in my book

 

I think that's what we're currently debating.

[Almateria]

If you could, even if only under a set of very unlikely circumstances, kill Sarevok early, there is no reason to keep it a cutscene.

[Fiann of the Silver Hand]

Well, if we're adding options, I'd like to see a chance for a non-stupid encounter, and the reasons for the desperate escape explained better.  Honestly, Gorion is a longtime member of the Harpers, and has defeated wily and dangerous creatures such as dragons, and faced down Bhaal's own cultists.  Ogres aren't silent, and neither is that ridiculous armor Sarevok wears.  If anyone was going to be ambushed, you'd think it'd be the Candlekeep duo and not the rag-tag troop of brutish murderers.

 

Why would Gorion even need to take Charname away?  If Candlekeep wasn't safe, why on earth would the wilderness be better?

Edited by Fiann of the Silver Hand, 07 September 2015 - 03:05 AM.

[Bill Bisco]

 Reading other forums, I realize that Tamoko as a Cleric should not actually be casting Flame Arrow, she should be casting Magical Stone.  That spell gives 1-4 damage all the time no matter what and the 1 damage makes more sense in that case.  So yes, we can be a little more realistic and not cause insta-CHARNAME death for all CHARNAMES.  Granted this would mean that any Mage Character would need 15 CON or a familiar to be guaranteed survival against Tamoko.
 
I always pick Find Familiar as one of my starting Mage Spells.  It is one of the best spells in the early game and more HP is always useful.  I'm speaking of vanilla BGT, Tutu, BGEE or course.  I don't know what other mods do if they nerf the spell. 
 
Good thought on Boots of Speed.  I suppose I'd have to test how well an unspeeded CHARNAME could run around Sarevok.  Perhaps the solution is a little easier if you can't realistically kite Sarevok all day long with arrows/bolts/bullets.  Many people would give up and run away.
 
Gorion has a letter with him in which Elminster tells Gorion to leave Candlekeep that night immediately because a moving target is hard to catch.  Sarevok knew that CHARNAME was in Candlekeep and was presumably able to enter Candlekeep and kill CHARNAME and/or Gorion there.  Being in a different location would make it harder for Sarevok to find CHARNAME. 
 
As far as further modifying the encounter, if Gorion and CHARNAME are not faster than Sarevok's crew then the only sure way to get away is for one person to stay behind which is what Gorion did.  Gorion as a higher level Mage should have more spells available to him and should have Stoneskin up.  He'd still almost assuredly lose in a straight up fight against Sarevok because of Sarevok's high HP and resistances and that Gorion has memorized so many direct damage spells. 
 
If you were going to buff the fight, then Semaj could be present and more archers.  That would certainly be scarier.  Or, just give Sarevok and crew a haste effect or something.  I'm not entirely sure the makeup of those fighting needs to be adjusted.
 
One question though is at what point did Sarevok enter Candlekeep as Koveras?  Is there a reason Sarevok couldn't enter Candlekeep immediately post battle with Gorion?

Edited by Bill Bisco, 07 September 2015 - 06:57 AM.

[Lollorian]

Loving the direction this discussion has taken now

 

If nothing else, hopefully someone can code up a better Gorion-Sarevok fight scene that we can use in BGT and CtB (the Imp and me contemplated doing something along these lines ages ago but I dunno something happened... Probably laziness...)

[Bill Bisco]

What fight scene happens in Ctb?