15 replies to this topic

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I created a nice little test party tonight, bumped them up to 4 mil XP, rested, and sent them against Improved Illasera & co.  No IA or Timestops.  

Sword Angel - She was the party leader & did well.  I didn't really use any of her special abilities though.  Still too mage focused.     I'm going to have to give it another run-thru.  As a fighter though she did fine.  Illasera nearly got her once but fortunately the SA got blown back and the party cleric was able to make it over in time with a nice heal spell.  Body Count 0.

Prestess of Lantandar - A lady dwarf.  Again I didn't even think to try the new Boon or Divine Intervention.  Her healing kept the party alive and a well timed Flame Strike took down the Reaver Cleric.

Skald - Half Elf male ... you know I'm starting to sound like a broken record.  Didn't use much of his new specials, yadda, yadda, yadda.  Used him as a utility guy, mostly fighting under Tensor's.  Body Count 0

Enchanter - Elf female.  While I was picking out spells I kept thinking that this was the reason I never played an Enchanter.  However she ended up with the highest body count of the group.  Dragon's Breath works wonders.   She killed the Reaver Mage in the first shot & I *think* that she got the big warrior type Reaver too.  I tried out Spell Worm before and after the combat.  Don't like it.  When it works it's fantastic ... but the fact that a made save on the first round means that *no* spells are lost sucks.

Necromancer - Human Male.  Oh my ***!  Those Bonegaurds are friggen awesome!  Dark Pact is really cool too!  Summoned two for the fight and had one Dark Pacted.  Whoah!  These guys could get Illasara even when she was Ethereal, much like a Diva or Planatar.  Nice.  This guy and the new spells were both way cooler than I had expected.  Body Count 0, but Pacted Boneguard is the one who offed Illasara at the very end of the fight, so that's got to count for something!

Archer - I was afraid to try the percision strike in this fight since I wanted to keep foes as grouped up as possible for the area spells & since he was never Illasara's target he never had to use Endurance.  This guy nailed the teleporting Reaver Rogue.

Nothing looked obviously broke.  Tomorrow I'm going to try the fight again and play with a few of the new HLAs in the Pocket Plane.

[T.G.Maestro]

Sword Angel - She was the party leader & did well. I didn't really use any of her special abilities though.

I suggest giving them a try, Littiz would be pleased . Some of her abilities won't be that much of a help here (Banish), but Heroism and a few other HLAs can grant lovely bonuses.

Prestess of Lantandar - A lady dwarf. Again I didn't even think to try the new Boon or Divine Intervention

Ehm, Priestess of Lathander, right? DEFINITELY experiment with these, Guardian Angel does wonders, and I think I shouldn't really sing odes about Divine Intervention... it can do REAL wonders..

I tried out Spell Worm before and after the combat. Don't like it. When it works it's fantastic ... but the fact that a made save on the first round means that *no* spells are lost sucks

And this sounds perfect to me .

Necromancer - Human Male. Oh my ***! Those Bonegaurds are friggen awesome! Dark Pact is really cool too! Summoned two for the fight and had one Dark Pacted. Whoah! These guys could get Illasara even when she was Ethereal, much like a Diva or Planatar. Nice

Hehhe... I told everyone that those nasties will rock...

I was afraid to try the percision strike

A big mistake - don't tell me that you never really wanted to shoot as precise and deadly as Illasera...

Thanks for the testing though!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Can you tell that I was sleepy as I typed my first post here?

Anyway as I was falling asleep last night I realized that the reason that I hadn?t used many of the new special abilities in my test combat was that I hadn?t learned them yet.

When it comes to the out of the box spells & HLAs, over the course of long playing, I?ve gotten used to what I can and should do in many situations. I more or less just make snap decisions in combat based on that prior experience. It?s a bit different with a small party or solo, but with a full party it?s nearly impossible for me to micromanage each party member so even with the non-refinements stuff party members don?t get used to their full potential.

All the Refinements changes just exacerbates that. There is so much new stuff that it?s hard to remember in combat and even more so for 6 party members. The new HLAs and spells that I used were primary done before combat, for instance creating the Boneguards before the fight, or in out of combat testing.

The Sword Angel in particular was a victim of this. This kit?s abilities are so different than what I?m used to and I?ve had so little play experience with them that they just went by the wayside.

I can see that I?m going to have to almost relearn the game with this mod installed.

You know a nice additional component to Refinements would be player scripts that used the new HLAs.


OK on to specific stuff.

Spell Worm

In the word?s of Xyx?s spell guide to which Littiz contributed. This is yet another ?save or else? spell. The problem is that there are all sorts of lower level spells or this sort that are better. Would you rather have your foe dead (Finger of Death) or with fewer spells? Would you rather turn your foe into an ally (Domination) or simply make them less effective? Would you rather transform them into a Squirrel (Polymorph Other) and prevent spellcasting or rip only a couple of spells from their spellbook? In every instance Spell Worm comes up short.

Don?t get me wrong. I like the base idea of Spell Worm; it?s very innovative and cool. It?s the fact that *nothing* happens if the foe saves that bothers me the most. That?s a big waste of a 9th level spell casting if the foe saves (and we all know how good the ToB foe saves are) and it gets even worse if you go on with True Dweomers.

It just seems to me that this spell should do *something* even if the foe makes his save.

I also paused to wonder why the Enchanter didn?t get a Mass Charm spell like the Bard HLA. When I think of Enchanters Charm and Domination are the spells that immediately come to mind.

Precision Strike

It looks useful, but I was trying to keep the Reavers as bunched up as possible so I could hit them with area spells. This HLA I remembered but didn?t think was the best for that particular fight.

In retrospect it might have been smart to knock Illasera herself away and deal with the rest of her crew first.

[T.G.Maestro]

I can see that I?m going to have to almost relearn the game with this mod installed.

Agree entirely. I've experienced the same thing as I was progressing with my ToB party using these new abilities.

Don?t get me wrong. I like the base idea of Spell Worm; it?s very innovative and cool. It?s the fact that *nothing* happens if the foe saves that bothers me the most. That?s a big waste of a 9th level spell casting if the foe saves

Good point. I will change it after discussing it with Littiz. Any ideas/suggestions on the possible improvement? (I vote for a 2-round complete Miscast Magic effect without save).

it gets even worse if you go on with True Dweomers.

If the TD System becomes reality, Spell Worm will act a a 9th level spell. It won't fall into the TD category, but will be accessible as a bonus 9th level enchanter/wizard(?) HLA.

I also paused to wonder why the Enchanter didn?t get a Mass Charm spell like the Bard HLA

Again, in the TD System it will be there, but I haven't decide weather as a 9th level wizard HLA (saves without penalties), or as a TD (saves at -4).

Precision Strike

It is "Precision", right? I don't remember adding the "Strike" part...

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Don?t get me wrong. I like the base idea of Spell Worm; it?s very innovative and cool. It?s the fact that *nothing* happens if the foe saves that bothers me the most. That?s a big waste of a 9th level spell casting if the foe saves

Good point. I will change it after discussing it with Littiz. Any ideas/suggestions on the possible improvement? (I vote for a 2-round complete Miscast Magic effect without save).

That sounds fine to me. Or even just make the first spell strip automatic and the rest by save.

Precision Strike

It is "Precision", right? I don't remember adding the "Strike" part...

Your memory is correct. Mine however was not. Nor was my spelling!

[T.G.Maestro]

Your memory is correct. Mine however was not. Nor was my spelling!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

OK. Take two.

This time the battle went much better and a little worse for me.

One of the first things that happened this time was that Bob, my Necromancer, got silenced and the Reaver Mage . Had this happened on my first try I likely wouldn?t have won without anyone dieing. The Reaver warrior & Illasera took out one of the Bonegaurds too. Both of them survived the first time.

On the flip side I had my Skald singing most of the battle, which he really should have been doing the first time, and I used Heroism, per TG?s suggestion. Both of these helped quite a bit.

Also instead of sending my ?main? PC right at Illasera where she would be most at risk I sent the boneguards out first and the mages who had Protection from Magic Weapons who could soak the attacks.

Ironically it was the Enchanter who did the best again. Illasera fell to a 3 damage dart attack. She was also responsible for the Reaver Mage?s death.

The Sword Angel was incredibly effective this time, taking out the Reaver Cleric and the Skeletal Warrior he summoned. She also set up the Enchanter?s Illasera kill by doing 28 points of damage right before the fatal dart. I?ll have to try out the Merciful Fighting next time.

Bob?s Boneguard took out the Reaver Warrior but otherwise he was totally ineffective due to the silence spell.

Didn?t try out Divine Intervention ... again. I forgot that it was an innate in the heat of battle and didn?t see it in her memorized spells. Sigh. However even with that the Cleric was effective.

The Skald was great support and took out the Reaver Rouge with a magic missile.

I used the Archer?s Precision this time to shoot Illasera out of the start of the battle & it helped a *lot* however he didn?t have any kills. Keeping her arrowness busy was enough for me though.

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 06 May 2004 - 05:42 PM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Did this fight a third time and won easily. However testing was largely hosed by my last second decision to put Mass Invisibility on the party. That killed stuff like testing the Lathandar's Blessing innate. Sigh.

It's ironic. The other game I'm playing right now is a TuTu game with a Sorcerer PC that I plan on bringing through ToB with Refinements. The power level difference is staggering. It's really odd going back and forth some times.

[Schatten]

spell worm: saves tougher, no miscast if not saved instead spell removal. if saved miscast like 50% or something for 1 round. so you have either for one round a miscast or a spell is removed.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Just an FYI, on that last battle I finally remembered to use the Skald Magic Flute.

The quick use icon looked a little funny for summoning a fighter ... but, hey, I know the limits you guys are working under.

As for the fighter himself, he did well. He was the one that finally killed the Big I.

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for the input Rathwellin, I'm glad that most of our additions seem to be useful for the players too!
BTW, you should definitely try Divine Intervention the next time you try this (or another) battle. Hmm, what is your cleric's alignment, good/evil?

EDIT: and once you feel like you reached the maximum effectiveness of this current party (and tried all the new HLAs at least once), try a completely different party combination.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 10 May 2004 - 03:28 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I actually created a second test party last Friday & used it against the big I & co. twice but didn?t have time to do as much detailed testing as I?ve wanted. Hence the lack of posts.

Cavalier
Swashbuckler
Fighter / Illusionist (multiclass)
Priest of Helm
Wildmage
Beastmaster

Bonked them up to 4.5 mil XP and CLUAed in a few items.

Just some quick general impressions.

Cavalier was fine but previous lead Sword Angel was cooler. Nothing jumped out at me as being broken here however few of the specials were really appropriate for this encounter.

Swashbucker. I?ve always meant to play the game with a swashie PC but have never gotten around to it. I was pleasantly surprised at how well this PC functioned. Used few of his HLAs in the battle so I?ll hold back on more for now.

Fighter / Illusionist. Heh. Gnome F/I with the Flail of Ages rocked. Confirmed that Mirrored Clones HLA was properly selectable.

Priest of Helm. Didn?t perform up to expectations. I?ve tried Devine Intervention three times so far and I haven?t seen it do anything yet. I?m starting to wonder if it works in the grove. I?ve seen this HLA work in the Pocket Plane before, but I that may have been in beta testings.

Wildmage. I now know that my decision to avoid Wild Mages like the plague was the proper choice for me. Blegh. I know folks like this kit but it?s not for me. Anyway she did fine in combat but I have the same issues with Wildstrike that I did with Spell Worm. Wildstrike is a ?save or else? spell and, though cool, isn?t really more effective in combat than Dire Charm, Finger of Death, or Polymorph Other. Overall it is fine, but IMO it too should do something to the target, however small, even if a save is made.

Beastmaster. I?ve long thought that these guys were underpowered. This testing did nothing to dispel my opinion. The one oddity was that, after level-ups, he had a ?Find Familiar? innate. I haven?t had a chance to really investigate more & see if this is normal in an unmodded game or if it?s something deliberate or otherwise in Refinements. I was planning on tracking this down tonight or tomorrow.

Just a fun note, but the Swashie killed Illa in my first fight & she got him + the Cavalier in the second! I lost!

[T.G.Maestro]

Bonked them up to 4.5 mil XP and CLUAed in a few items

Try it with a maximum of 4 million XP instead of higher scores. More challanging this way. You won't get that many HLAs, but still, you can test at least 4-5 of them.

Cavalier was fine but previous lead Sword Angel was cooler. Nothing jumped out at me as being broken here however few of the specials were really appropriate for this encounter

Indeed - he would do wonders against Demogorgon on the other hand however...

Fighter / Illusionist

Did you find the Mirrored Clones HLA overpowered? Anyway, I intend to make it a TD level spell in the future.

Priest of Helm. Didn?t perform up to expectations. I?ve tried Devine Intervention three times so far and I haven?t seen it do anything yet. I?m starting to wonder if it works in the grove. I?ve seen this HLA work in the Pocket Plane before, but I that may have been in beta testings.

Again, this is a common bug in the Grove. Something in that area disrupts the first spellcastings (mostly the longer castings). I think it MIGHT have something to do with Illasera's attack item, it might use a global effect somewhere - I had the same "miscast" bug everytime she attacked/killed one of my summons. Her arrows cause spell failure in her targets along with some other effects like insta-kill summons, and this spell failure sometimes affects the spellcasters in the party too. The only good solution I found for this bug is to cast a quick spell at the start of the battle, and only THEN attempt to cast DI or ES, or any other spells that require longer castings. Another thing that can help is to don't switch control between characters during the casting process (I mean, once you started to cast DI with the cleric, don't switch to other NPCs until he finishes it). The Divine Intervention ability works fine in the Grove though, the only thing that may cause this bug is the one decribed above. And of course there is a chance that your god will ignore your prayer, and nothing happens - in this case a "Your prayer has been dismissed" text should appear above the cleric.

Wildstrike is a ?save or else? spell and, though cool, isn?t really more effective in combat than Dire Charm, Finger of Death, or Polymorph Other. Overall it is fine, but IMO it too should do something to the target, however small, even if a save is made

I'll consider this. Maybe I'll add a 1 round 100% Wild Magic effect without save.

Beastmaster. I?ve long thought that these guys were underpowered. This testing did nothing to dispel my opinion

True, yet we can do almost nothing to counter this problem. The current HLAs make this kit a bit more tougher, but still, the whole conept of it suffers from its underpowered nature. Summoning animas is nice at the beginning of the game, but is laughable in ToB. I can add a 100% Charm Animal ability to them, one that can be used at will (unlimited times/day, without save or resistance), but that won't make them deadly in the long run.
The Familiar for this kit was always there AFAIK.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

It's probably too late now, but what the heck.

Created a third test party.

1/2 Elf Blade
Dwarf Wizardslayer
Elf Barbarian (Aerie portrait ... really funny )
Human Priest of Talos
1/2 Elf Transmuter
Gnome Illusionist/Thief

One thing I've noticed is that with Rogue Rebalancing installed (Refinements after this) my Swashbuckler from above & my Illusionist Thief get two different kinds of crippling strike. Just seems odd.

Finally got Divine Intervention to work with Test Party #2. Mage had already summoned a Planetar & DI summoned another (but no Diva - this was from a LN cleric)

More later.

[T.G.Maestro]

One thing I've noticed is that with Rogue Rebalancing installed (Refinements after this) my Swashbuckler from above & my Illusionist Thief get two different kinds of crippling strike. Just seems odd

Argh, thats a well known bug for me - aVENGER seems to have simply renamed one of the original HLAs to Crippling Strike! (I think it was spcl913 or 914)
Anyway, I'll fix this, hopefully I can get rid of that aPACK Crippling Strike. Please use *Cripple* only, thats the one related to Refinements, and is supposedly bugfree.

[T.G.Maestro]

And one more thing - try to test the good/evil versions of DI as much as possible: they both have around 20 different effects...