Posted by Schatten on 20 October 2004 - 12:10 AM in Refinements

"I agree that XP drain can be a valid balancing method. I just happen to think that it's a poor choice both design wise in terms of 2nd ed / BG & that overall concept is broken. XP = experience = learning. XP by itself is not power in 2nd ed. A mage shouldn't permanently 'forget' the lessons he has learned simply for casting a spell.

XP loss in PnP *does* happen in 3x. It does not in 2nd. 3x has other factors that balance this out. 2nd ed does not.

If a 2nd ed GM told me that I just lost XP for casting a spell I would thank him for running the game, collect my stuff, and take a hike. I say this having only quit 2 games in nearly 20 years of RPGing."

that conviced me. :thumb:




"That's the range of a TD system that drained XP. That's all of it. Measure the cost and answer yourselves. Casting 100 True Dweomers is going to cost me an average of 500k XP in the "whole" game time, and that counting with 'every' TD costing experience. Which TGM said it wouldn't be the case."

this you say is your argument for td exp loss? its more against it. you can cast 100 tds because you loose the knowledge to breath (exp.) but you cannot do it because this td uses the holy avenger +6 as component. go figure.




"Exactly. By sacrificing a potent item or a component of an item, you don't lose anything: you merely lose the possibility to gain another power, for example an uber-item. Since the game (especially ToB) is swarmed with these already, we'd require around 4-5 existing powerful items for each castings to balance, which won't happen. Understand that *not gaining more power* not equals with *sacrificing power*. THIS is the point here. "

replace items with exp and you have a counter argument.


my last post here. tgms mind is set and mine is also. i dont use it then.

Posted by Schatten on 19 October 2004 - 12:05 AM in Refinements

I remember coding up a rebalanced project image that can cast spells only up to level 5 without using scripting...

-Galactygon

i would never use that. what balance is that? pi is that, a copy of the caster.

Posted by Schatten on 18 October 2004 - 03:59 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 29 October 2004 - 10:05 AM in Refinements

if i wouldnt know you two were dudes i would think you are a married couple. you sound like my parents sometimes.

Posted by Schatten on 20 October 2004 - 01:49 AM in Refinements

i somewhat agree with tgm here. i would feel a bit offended when someone writes a guide as stone wolf said. it is a great amount of work. nevertheless everybody knows that their mod gets altered. man, there was one weapon, a dagger, that has like 25% chance of casing something (cant remember never used it much) without save and no res check from reign of virtue (??) and i have tweaked it a lot (still didnt used it.)

but tgm you sure has modded other mods. iirc, valen, for example. (as i have done, too) and chloe also? :turnip2:

Posted by Schatten on 31 March 2004 - 04:59 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 29 March 2004 - 09:47 AM in Refinements

The complaint I would have it that they should be even more powerful, but have very long casting times, and I like the idea someone mentioned about needing components.  If you needed a rogue stone or king's tear every time you cast a spell, that would curtail their use as well.  For some, they could be godly, but require things like dragon scales, lich skulls, even unique items like the Eye of Tyr.

i can live with the removel of an jewel but to use unique items is too much. you can cast it only once and that means the spell must be so powerfull that its not even funny anymore.

@dorotea: you cannot compare pnp and bg2 like you do. imagine how old and powerfull lvl 20+ npcs are in pnp and now look how fast you get the lvls and become a demigod . you kill dragons and liches with ease. imo this is a very good idea. hope tgm can put it in.

@ tgm: hmm.... perhaps it is possible to make a menu like spell immunity. and when you lvl up and want to improve your dweomer you get an additional power. this means you have to add a spell to the menu. (this means you have to erase the previous spell and put in a new one. so you have to make n spells [n is the number of powers {example: lvl 1 you get spell x, dweomer power a; lvl 2 you get spell x&y, dweomer power b; dweomer power a gets replaced with b. a consists of spell x and b of x and y. so you cannot choose which powers you get but you dont get all at once }]).
hmm.... i dont think anyone understands what i mean.

Posted by Schatten on 05 February 2004 - 02:02 PM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 05 February 2004 - 02:33 PM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 06 February 2004 - 12:41 PM in Refinements

hey, what about party projected images. the whole party would be pied.
or power word: slow&confusion&malison
aura of summoning: every summons moves faster, hits harder, more hp and there is a chance that every summon spell wont be removed from memory (or that two creatures arrive)
summon shopkeeper
or something like summoning a gang. not one monster that is boring every summon spell summons one monster but a gang is cool. something like a human killer gang that fights everything that is non-human (i mean demons, undead but not elf ect). a mage/sorc, an archer, a thief, a fighter and a berserker. if possible not controllable by player. yeah, this is a must.

Posted by Schatten on 22 October 2004 - 03:45 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 11 September 2004 - 04:14 AM in Refinements

that is a most brilliant idea rathwellin. not sleep in the dungeon and such a great script will make this fight really

Posted by Schatten on 13 September 2004 - 06:01 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 09 August 2004 - 09:20 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 13 October 2004 - 10:16 PM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 10 June 2004 - 11:51 AM in Refinements

what about the dragon in the hell trials?

i dont think he really is a dragon.

Posted by Schatten on 07 June 2004 - 08:01 AM in Refinements

"Understandable, but I'd once again call your attention to their differencies in Age cathegories. I know, those levels are my imagination only, but it'd help show the difference in difficulty between those dragons. An Adult Red Dragon would have around 300, an Ancient around 400, a Wyrm level around 520 and a Great Wyrm above 650.
And the same goes for damage resistances - those stats will increase with age cathegories too!"

umm.... those hps are based on your bg2 experience not on pnp dragons. iirc, a hd is a 8-sided dice if not stated otherwise and old daddy dragons have like 20 hit dices. this is not 600hp.
nah, doesnt matter. the main thing is dragons pose a threat to low lvl crap heroes aka heroes >lvl16.




"Not entirely Galactygon. No matter how much we try to follow pnp, we must accept the fact that BG2 IS NOT PNP. Things work differently in this game. While I'd prefer the idea to lower XPs and such (as you intend to do in LC), it would result in complete disaster in the long run - many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities. If you make every party weaker (in level and equipment), encounters like the Ascension Five would become impossible. Could you provide a good tactic vs. Improved Abazigal for a 16th-18th level party? Or what would you suggest, uninstalling these mods? Um, sorry, but no.
You see, BG2's system is set, just as the system of pnp. And they are not the same. Trying to mix them too much can result in bad things."

the problem is with balancing the mods that place new monsters in the game. this results in extra exp/items and thus you get more powerfull. resulting in creating more powerfull monsters that give too much exp. or if you place new quests in game you get more exp making anything after that more easy. creating quests that give nothing would be boring (for me at least).
what to do? lower the exp overrall. imagine someone installs every mod that gives extra exp. he then playes the game and modifys it so you are at the lvl cap from soa at the end of soa. so it is balanced again.

Posted by Schatten on 07 June 2004 - 06:17 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 07 June 2004 - 06:13 AM in Refinements

-aura is modified by -4 if i read right here and so should it be implemented. (okay, tough ones are immune but thats not implementable, i think). better would be to make the fear according to age and not general.
-jep, you should select them according to their "nature" (red gets fire spells) for fun.
-yep.
-like they have in pnp. like a lvl18 fighter.

is it really necessary to give every dragon phys res? they already have enough hp and if you count in perhaps one or two summons its enough.

black
50k? thats a joke. at least 100k. no less.
can you implement the potion becomes useless ability?


shadow
sorry, 11lvldrain is too high. this never enters my game. besides it should be temp and not permanent.

red
breathweapon: isnt the damage enough?

silver
feather stopps all missiles, not reflects them back. and all dragons are immune to normal missiles.


i like the changes.

Posted by Schatten on 07 June 2004 - 12:08 PM in Refinements

"I don't think they are unbeatable at all. I was able to kill improved Abazigal (and he had a lot of assistants, even an adult dragon) and he had 500 HP. I was doubting just because they had more than Abazigal. But seeing how TG calculated the HP, I think he is right. "

so you say you beat imp aba with soa chars with lvl 17 or 18?
the hp of the dragons are tgm guessing for balance and not calculated. he still can change them if we whine enough.



"I don't agree. After level 20, you won't receive too much bonuses : the THAC0 is capped at 0, the saving throws are capped also. I mean : they are beatable (don't forget they don't have any assistance). "

sure. not all dragons should have assistances. if all dragons become assistances it would be boring because its repetative. some if not most should be tough enough alone. (arent dragons solo creatures? or do they always have someone around?). was a hint for tob to not give every dragon goons.
ehm... you become more powerfull over tob, you know?




"If a player can beat this version of Firkraag with a party that lacks TOB level items, spells and HLAs then I'm darn impressed by his SOA skills."

and patience for reloads.




"His Tougher Sendai proves the contrary, but hey..! "

is it for high modded games with more powerfull n/pcs? i dont think so.

Posted by Schatten on 08 June 2004 - 09:49 AM in Refinements

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

i find this battle pretty tough.

the battles shouldnt be endless reload orgies. a 900hp red dragon (35% res for phys, 40%mag res, fire immune, rest 20%) with a near end soa party or even with one hla is too much. dont forget the team wants to add minions to some of the dragons. imagine someone wants to play only one or two mods? he cant do this with dragon revision.
the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like.

Posted by Schatten on 18 June 2004 - 03:17 AM in Refinements

Posted by Schatten on 08 June 2004 - 12:11 PM in Refinements

no no no. dont get me wrong. as i said in my first post i like the changes except the hp. this only stretches the battle. i trust you to find the proper values.
i dont find arguments based on a 3 man gang valied when it comes to balance issues. when doing this you must do it with a full party and non to moderate modded game, imo.

Posted by Schatten on 08 June 2004 - 11:47 AM in Refinements

First, TG says that Firk won't have minions.
   Second, a party can reach around 3,5 million XP without any mods. And if you do some quest with fewer party members, the XP will be even higher.
   Third, I really believe that TG will test those dragons and lower their bonuses if they are too tough.
   I just wanted to point that I don't find Firk's HP so scary. But, until I'll try it, I'm half-blind.

"the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like. "

am i allowed to quote myself?
sure. a three man team can annihilate everything. i even imagine i could beat the entire game without reloading with all kind of mods. but this has nothing to do with it. do you think balancing this way is really good balancing? i think this is a very, very bad balancing. and if memory serves the target of this mod is to balance the game and make the battles more fun and challengeing and not powergamers wet dreams.
and again i say, a party should not have 3.5mio exp at this point and i dont think all dragon fights should be the last. i think about the shadow dragon here. he seems okay to beat before go go to the underdark. firkraag should definatly be one of the last fights. and the others are set in stone.

Posted by Schatten on 06 August 2004 - 07:27 AM in Refinements