Right now we're talking just about shields

We'll take care of shields right after armors were coded - we'll add the shield AC modifications to the component along with the base AC modifications for armors.
These will be discussed here before, of course.

I kept thinking on shields, since my last ideas were not perfect IMO. While the AC bonuses vs. missiles were good, the fact that Large shields should be very hard to handle haven?t been implemented at all. Also, Sim had a good point by saying that large shields should offer at least a bit better overall protection than other, smaller shields ? they cover the entire body when held correctly.
Note that this system still ignores Enchantment Level, and I wish to keep it that way. Only the "large shield" cathegory has some penalties, and that comes mostly from their sizes, not from their weights - and while a greater enchantment makes them lighter, it won't make them smaller and easier to handle.

Here are my latest, and hopefully final suggestions on how shields should be handled by this component:



Bucklers:
AC bonus: 1
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 0
Movement penalty: 0
DEX penalty: 0

Small Shields:
AC bonus: 1
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 0
Movement penalty: 0
DEX penalty: 0

Medium Shields:
AC bonus: 1
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 1
Movement penalty: 0
DEX penalty: 0

Large Shields:
AC bonus: 2
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 2
Movement penalty: -10%
DEX penalty: -1


And here are the special cases, a few unique Large Shields:

Shield of the Falling Stars +1, +4 vs. Missiles (SHLD07)
AC bonus: 3
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 4
Movement penalty: -10%
DEX penalty: -1

Large Shield +2 (no unique name) (SHLD19)
AC bonus: 4
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 2
Movement penalty: -5%
DEX penalty: 0

Fortress Shield +3 (SHLD23)
AC bonus: 5
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 7
Movement penalty: 10%
DEX penalty: -1

Large Shield +2 (no unique name) (SHLD30)
AC bonus: 4
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 2
Movement penalty: 0
DEX penalty: 0

Darksteel Shield (SHLD 31)
AC bonus: 6
Extra AC bonus vs. missiles: 2
Movement penalty: 5%
DEX penalty: -1

As I already posted my opinion about this topic somewhere above, I also think that missile resistances should be re-balanced.
I still say we should modify the base AC modifiers of the various armor types (the specific modifiers vs. different attacks).

What I'd agree to do though, is to increase the level of missile defence provided by shields.

Seconded. I guess we can add shields to Armor Revisions, but only with reduced number of effects. Their AC bonuses should be revised, yes. OTOH. I don't think we should add any DEX, speed or the other modifiers to them, since by that logic, we should add these to weapons as well.

Now, if no one has any additional comments/suggestion, it is time to start coding all this.

Um.. actually, they WILL be part of this...

Considering the stat range, percentage penalties will make things worse not better.

Yep, that is my problem as well - percentages are far less useful for these effects. Honestly, for the damage reduction part of Armor Revisions, I'd far more use fixed numbers than those percentages. Much more precise and reliable that way.

Well, if you really want to add some spellcasting penalty to shields it could be a slight increase in casting time, maybe plus one (probably the time required to put the shield down or something). However I haven't given a thought to possible balance issues yet.

No, I truly don't think we will mess with casting times and spell failure for shields. Armors already do this, and if one is desperate, there is the G3 Tweak Pack.

The other problem being the fact that if the armor is given DEX requirement to avoid the death of characters starting with very low dex value (which we should do), the armor itself can become red *after* being worn, in some cases (eg: armor requires 4 dex, applies a 3 dex penalty, a character with 6 dex wears it, dex goes to 3, armor becomes red despite being worn).
This problem is just a cosmetical one, and though I am usually concerned even with cosmetical issues, in this case I'd say it's not something to be worried about: you can see it as a marker for the player, reminding him that the character is "sacrificing" almost all the dexterity he has available, and that the armor is being very heavy for him. All in all, it happens for characters who don't have at least twice the dexterity requirement minus 1 (unless I'm mistaken), so the case gets a special notice

I completely agree with you Littiz. Just my words up there.

The type of weapons a buckler could safely block were limited to missile weapons and slashing weapons that would give any bonus. Bludegoning weapons would easily break a wrist of one who foolishing decided to block one and piercing weapons, well even small shields can't handly them well.

As I said, I'm referring to deflecting blows instead of blocking them .
Also, while in RL everything you said would sound much more blieveable, in this game we also have to take care for item balance and their original concept.

@ a savage: your topic has been merged into this one to avoid unnecessary confusion.

Hi
I was wondering how the cleric spells
blade barrier and globe of blades would behave within those changes.
I think their damage is magical and resistable to magical resistance.
It would be nice if you could translate it to slashing or a mix of piercing slashing dmg.

These changes are absolutely possible, but only in a future component. We've been toying with the idea of "Spell Revisions", but I fear it will have to wait.
But to answer your question, yes, it is possible, and it is a good idea.

I dont know if you have to give the spells then some sort of enchantment lvl since liches and their demi form have enchantment lvl restrictions to hit. So they wont be killed outright somehow.

While MR wouldn't affect the spell anymore, we could add a simple save to avoid half/full damage. The options are there at least.

On another note there might be ways to get a ridiculous high dmg reduction from weapons involving faith armor, the defender flail, restored bhaal gifts(?) and the studded armor from the chosen of cyric component. This might be something to have a look into, I didnt do the maths here but i guess a value of 80 is reachable.

Already noted, this is indeed a serious problem, one that still needs to be deal with. :closedeyes:

I'm thinking most of your lastest shield ideas are okay except i'd add -1 dexterity to medium shield. There is no reason for a moevement penalty, but there is also no reason for it to just be better than a small shield with no drawbacks.

True, but in the GAME (anmd not RL), there is a reason - mostly because the game counts the Medium Shield a better shield than a Small one.

Also the buckler was not used for blocking excpet for missiles and in duels. Because unlike even a small shield it is quite small and so close to the wrist it would do little do stop an attack from a weapon

I can't agree with you entirely - in my opinion, a buckler is very incapable to vlock incoming missiles, mainly because it's size. OTOH, it is capable to deflect (not directly block) melee attacks when positioned the right way.

I'm not really for thieveing or casting failures, but i think slowing down the skills and spells for medium and large sheilds by 1 is balancing and not far fetched condisering its otherwise just benifiting multis even more

Yes, I also condiered adding a +1 to spellcasting speed while using Medium or Tower Shields... we'll see.

It would require scripting to check for the current dex of the target

I'm not overly sure about this - ability scores are modified by way too many things to act as a precise basis for scripts. I guess the_bigg can say more to this though.

List of special armors (possible exceptions from the basic rules of this modified Armor System, each having a few uniqe values):
NOTE: these are only from the non-modded list, mod armors will be added too.

Mithral Field Plate +2 (better damage resistances)
Mithral Chain Mail +4 (better damage resistances)
Bruennor's Mithral Field Plate (better damage resistances)
Drow Adamantite Chain (better damage resistances, reduced movement and DEX penalty)
Drow Full Plate (better damage resistances, reduced movement and DEX penalty)
White Dragon Scale (better damage resistances, reduced DEX penalty)
Shadow Dragon Scale (better damage resistances, reduced DEX penalty)
Red Dragon Scale (better damage resistances, reduced DEX penalty)
Blue Dragon Plate (better damage resistance, reduced DEX penalty)
Ankheg Plate Mail (reduced DEX and movement penalty)
Missile Attraction (decreased missile resistance)
Shuruppak's Plate (decreased movement penalty)
Human Flesh Armor (better damage resistances)

Of course, I'm still open to suggestions - if you think I forgot something important, feel free to post your suggestion!

As to special armor, one thing I can see done with regards to the weight/bulkiness issue, is to make the Ankheg plate mail have much lower dex penalties, while keeping the bonuses of plate mail, due to its lightness.

We've already addressed this on the first page IIRC, and it will definitely be in. I intend to have a few additional exceptions too, namely the Dragon scale armors and possibly a few other special set of armors as well.

We don't plan to revise the unusabilities of the armours. However, multi and dual characters can wear heavier armors with penalties - somewhat similar to the component in the G3Tweak Pack, but better as there is the other additions and tweaks.

Something like that, yes.

NOTE:
- Elven Chain added to the list;
- DEX penalties were made a little tougher.

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

Originally I had in mind to add elemental damage modifiers too, but I don't think they are really necessary.

Thieving Skill modifiers and Spell Failure modifiers will be added though.

About time we provide something entirely new, instead of component upgrades

Right.

Well, how about penalties to thac0 with the heaviest armours? I'm sure a full plate is enough bulky to make it difficult to aim correctly a melee weapon [damage, instead, shouldn't vary, since the extra weight would compenstate for the clumsiness].

I'm not sure if this is a good idea. The modifications listed above already do a great deal of balancing (and thus nerfing heavy armors in favor of lighter ones), and this additional nerf would make those heavy plates even less useful.
Considerable at least.

Also, maybe as an HLA, you can reduce permanently some penalties (like if you picked the Armour Use Feat).

I don't know how to do such HLA, but you might have a better knowledge on this part anyway.
OTOH, it is quite vital that these penalties remain, unless every character above 20th level would face the old settings.

Maybe a bit too tougher

Actually, it was necessary to retain some of the drawbacks for highly enchanted heavy armors - without them, the situation of "heavy>light" would become even worse in the case of armors with an enchantment level higher than +3.

Anyway, what about Ankheg?  We might render it interesting again.

Indeed, just as many other unique set of armors. We will have to fine-tune these basic statistics for several special armors (Ankheg Plate Mail, Dragon Scale armors, etc)

Also, at this point we might remove the conflict with Rings of Protections and whatever. I mean, I never used the Ease of Use tweak so far, but in an environment where you have to choose carefully who -and if- wears an armor, that restriction has little reasons to remain, imho

You mean removing the conflict between magical armors and other magic items that would give AC bonuses? Considerable, but it has it's drawbacks - one could reach a pretty crazy AC by wearing a highly enchanted full plate together with a Ring of Protection +2, a Cloak of Protection +2 and an Amulet of Protection...
The only good solution for this problem would be to allow the player to equip all these items at once if he desires, but only the highest of the AC bonuses would apply to his base AC, the other would be ignored. At least that is how it is handled in 3rdE, and it works nice (though I have to admit there are different types of AC bonuses, and those are stackable with each other).

NOTE:
- Spell Failure table added.

Thank you for your comments Stone Wolf!

It's too bad there isn't a good (or even tolerable) way to put in a max dex bonus in the game, since that's one of the 3E things I like.

You share my thoughts on this matter.

This is probably more realistic though. At least this way people can't simply choose the armor that has a max dex bonus that matches the dex bonus they have so that they aren't penalized at all.

Yes, that was my goal.

I'm not sure about the studded/regular armor bonuses though. Studded armor will be heavier, but it's less rigid that standard leather armor. Obviously I've never worn either, but I'm guessing that the weight and the rigidity would balance each other out to a degree. Maybe the same penalties for both? Also, I've heard that full plate is perhaps easier to wear than a plate and chain mixture, since the armor somewhat supports itself instead of hanging off the shoulders of the wearer. Just a thought.

These are good points, but we have to face that BG2 is not entirely built on RL, and not even pnp. While everything you say will be true either of those, in BG2 Studded Leather>Leather from almost every PoV. Something similar goes to Plate Mail Armors vs. Full Plate Armors - in BG2 Full Plate is considered the king of armors, but it is the most heavier and harder to wear at the same time. If we'd further penalize Plate Mails, we would only achieve that it wouldn't be worth wearing instead of a Full Plate anymore.

I think I'd favour an increase in the bonuses, yes.

Please don't forget that we also plan to alter the base AC modifiers vs. various weapon types somewhat - for example heavy armors will receive bonuses versus ranged weaponry.
Also, another factor that should balance things out is the increasing bonuses with increasing Enchantment Levels. As I see things ATM, a highly enchanted Full Plate can still make your character a tank, no matter those (decreasing!) penalties.

UPDATE: Damage Resistance bonuses for heavy armors slightly increased.

UPDATE: Thieving Skill penalties added.

Re items + rings: according to 3rd ed, you can combine an armour and a ring of protection, but not two rings of protection, and this makes sense to me.
Any ring - cloack - whatever that is not "of protection" gives a Generic bonus and can stack (cheesy, but I don't exactly want to decide what type of bonus - generic or deflection - is appropriate for every item)

Yes, even in BG2 it is possible to stack AC bonuses, but they should be different types. AC bonuses from "Protection" items and armor Enchantment Level bonuses won't stack, but effects from any other items granting a simple AC bonus does.
To be honest, I'd be interested how the engine recognizes these "different" types of AC bonuses - some clarification here would be appreciated.

Regarding the numbers: Elven Chain shouldn't hinder spellcasting (at least according to 2nd & 3rd ed.),

OK, I'll correct that.

what about shields? They should have some; but sadly, if you add penalties to dex there won't be much point in using a shield, unless they have a good DR.

I don't intend to add damage resistance to shields. Unlike armors, their main function is to help the character avoid direct blows to his body, and thus it would be better to let them grant AC bonuses only. Including shields to this system would be problematic from any PoV though: if we assign movenet rate and DEX penalties to them, we should already add those to heavier weapons too - those can hinder free movement as much as a medium shield. The only thing I'd find acceptable for shields is the spellcasting failure, but again, in that case the same should go for larger weapons too...

TG, can you explain why an echanted armor must give you a slashing/piercing/blunt/missile resistance besides the better AC ?

Heh, now this goes back to a discussion we had long ago, where we discussed the (possible) meaning of AC. You might as well remember, we even touched this subject in that old discussion about improved Dragons...
Anyway, IMHO, the whole AC system was somehow flawed in D&D. The fact that it means "overall defense" (including agility, armor) and thus it never had an effect on damage resistance always bothered me. While dexterity, speed, combat technics play a great role in AC, with that I agree - but to let your armor determine only weather you are hit or not is plain silly. A warrior marching in a Full Plate will be a much easier target than running around in Leather Armor - yet the current AC system tells the opposite. An armors prime purpose is to DEFLECT blows and negate the damage from them, not to help the wearer avoid blows.
Also, there are numerous examples in pnp and in BG2 too where the game works pretty much the way I interpret it: for example take a look at Dragons. They have a pretty good AC, but on the other hand they have considerable damage resistances at the same time. How is that possible, you may ask? Well, the asnwer is: while their "armor" and combat techniques (movement stances, etc.) play a great role in weather or not an opponent can hit them, their thick hide also soaks up part of the damage inflicted on them.
And the same goes for real armors, wearable by players and other characters.

As the title suggests, this will be one of the new components for the upcoming v3 of Refinements. This component was planned from the start, and the time has come to put it in shape.

Armor Revisions aims to add a more important role for armors in the game, making them affect much more than your AC. As a summary, wearing different types of armors would affect your resistance vs. various forms of damage (slashing, piercing, blunt, missile), would affect your DEX (effectively reducing the possible bonuses from a higher DEX score while wearing heavier armors), and lastly it would change the movement rate of the character (light armors wouldn't affect it at all, but encumbering plates would reduce it by a fixed percent). Here are the detailed changes, based on armor type and enchantment level:


1.: Damage Reduction (%) based on armor type and Enchantment Level
The values in order: +Enchantment level, Slashing/Piercing/Blunt/Missile resistances
Comments:
While these bonuses aren't that great at first sight, we should note that these are percentual bonuses instead of fixed values. This means that one would benefit the most from heavier armors when fighting opponents with considerably high combat damage. Also, I tried to balance the specific values for the various damage types according to the armors' attributes (a Chain Mail will have additional protection against piercing weapons for example).


Leather Armor
(+0)0/0/0/0 (+1)5/0/0/0 (+2)5/5/0/0 (+3)5/5/5/0 (+4)5/5/5/5 (+5)10/5/5/5 (+6)10/10/5/5

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)5/0/0/0 (+1)5/5/0/0 (+2)5/5/5/0 (+3)5/5/5/5 (+4)10/5/5/5 (+5)10/10/5/5 (+6)10/10/10/5

Hide Armor
(+0)5/5/5/0 (+1)5/5/5/5 (+2)5/5/10/5 (+3)10/5/10/5 (+4)10/10/10/5 (+5)10/10/10/10 (+6)10/10/15/10

Chain Mail
(+0)10/10/0/5 (+1)15/10/0/5 (+2)15/10/0/10 (+3)15/10/5/10 (+4)15/15/5/10 (+5)20/15/5/10 (+6)20/15/5/15

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)15/10/0/5 (+1)15/10/0/10 (+2)15/10/5/10 (+3)20/10/5/10 (+4)20/10/10/10 (+5)25/10/10/10 (+6)25/15/10/10

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)20/10/5/15 (+1)20/15/5/15 (+2)25/15/5/15 (+3)25/15/5/20 (+4)25/20/5/20 (+5)30/20/5/20 (+6)30/20/5/25

Full Plate Armor
(+0)30/10/5/30 (+1)30/15/5/30 (+2)30/15/5/35 (+3)30/15/5/40 (+4)30/20/5/40 (+5)35/20/5/40 (+6)35/25/5/40

Elven Chain
(+0)10/10/5/5 (+1)15/10/5/5 (+2)15/10/5/10 (+3)15/10/10/10 (+4)15/15/10/10 (+5)20/15/10/10 (+6)20/15/10/15


2.: Dexterity penalties based on armor type and Enchantment Level:
Comments:
This is likely the most important part of this component when it comes to balancing. It follows a basic logical statement: a man in Full Plate won't be as agile and dextrous as in normal clothes. Also, these changes will have an even greater effect when one decides what armor to wear by a certain character. With this addition, characters with naturally high DEX scores will be able to benefit much more from light armors than before, since their natural DEX bonus will remain unchanged. On the other hand, it will make it less likely that an agile elven warrior will wear Full Plates, since he will lose most bonuses from his normal DEX that way.

Leather Armor
(+0)1 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)2 (+1)1 (+2)1 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Hide Armor
(+0)2 (+1)1 (+2)1 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Chain Mail
(+0)3 (+1)2 (+2)2 (+3)1 (+4)1 (+5)0 (+6)0

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)4 (+1)3 (+2)3 (+3)2 (+4)2 (+5)1 (+6)1

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)5 (+1)4 (+2)4 (+2)3 (+4)3 (+5)2 (+6)2

Full Plate Armor
(+0)6 (+1)5 (+2)5 (+3)4 (+4)4 (+5)3 (+6)3

Elven Chain
(+0)1 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


3.: Movement Rate penalties (%) based on armor type and Enchantment Level
Comments:
This one works similar to the DEX modifiers - the heavier that armor is, the slower you'll move. This is logical again. And while the difference won't be great (especially with highly enchanted armors), it will make it sure that a Half-Orc in Full Plate Mail won't catch your thief wearing Leathers... and that can mean a lot in combat!

Leather Armor
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)5 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Hide Armor
(+0)10 (+1)5 (+2)5 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Chain Mail
(+0)15 (+1)10 (+2)10 (+3)5 (+4)5 (+5)0 (+6)0

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)20 (+1)15 (+2)15 (+3)10 (+4)10 (+5)5 (+6)5

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)25 (+1)20 (+2)20 (+3)15 (+4)15 (+5)10 (+6)10

Full Plate Armor
(+0)30 (+1)25 (+2)25 (+3)20 (+4)20 (+5)15 (+6)15

Elven Chain
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


4.: Spell Failure (%) in armor based on armor type and enchantment level
Comments:
This part of the refinements adds a specific miscast penalty to arcane spellcasting. Naturally, this only applies to multi,- and dual-class mages and bards, divine spellcasting remains unchanged. Enchantment level plays an important role here as well, so a highly enchanted set of armor will be less likely to cause a spell failure than it's non-magical counterpart.

Leather Armor
(+0)15 (+1)10 (+2)10 (+3)5 (+4)5 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)20 (+1)15 (+2)15 (+3)10 (+4)10 (+5)5 (+6)5

Hide Armor
(+0)25 (+1)20 (+2)20 (+3)15 (+4)15 (+5)10 (+6)10

Chain Mail
(+0)35 (+1)30 (+2)30 (+3)25 (+4)25 (+5)20 (+6)20

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)40 (+1)35 (+2)35 (+3)30 (+4)30 (+5)25 (+6)25

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)50 (+1)45 (+2)45 (+3)40 (+4)40 (+5)35 (+6)35

Full Plate Armor
(+0)50 (+1)45 (+2)45 (+3)40 (+4)40 (+5)35 (+6)35

Elven Chain
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


5.: Thieving Skill penalties (%) based on armor type and enchantment level
The order of skills is: Pick Pockets, Open Locks, Find/Disarm Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows
Comments:
A modification like this was already done in the G3 Tweak Pack, and this part of Armor Revisions works somewhat similar - it makes possible for dual,- and multi-thieves and rangers to use their thieving skills in heavier armors too, but only at significant penalties.

Leather Armor: (+0)0/0/0/0/0 (+1)0/0/0/0/0 (+2)0/0/0/0/0 (+3)0/0/0/0/0 (+4)0/0/0/0/0 (+5)0/0/0/0/0 (+6)0/0/0/0/0

Studded Leather: (+0)15/10/10/10/5 (+1)15/10/10/5/5 (+2)15/5/10/5/5 (+3)15/5/10/5/0 (+4)15/5/5/5/0 (+5)15/5/5/0/0 (+6)10/5/5/0/0

Hide Armor: (+0)25/20/20/20/15 (+1)25/20/20/20/10 (+2)25/20/15/20/10 (+3)25/15/15/20/10 (+4)25/15/15/15/10 (+5)25/15/15/15/5 (+6)25/10/15/15/5

Chain Mail: (+0)35/20/20/40/30 (+1)35/15/20/40/30 (+2)35/15/15/40/30 (+3)35/15/15/35/30 (+4)35/15/15/35/25 (+5)30/15/15/35/25 (+6)30/15/15/30/25

Splint/Banded: (+0)50/20/20/55/40 (+1)50/20/20/50/40 (+2)50/15/20/50/40 (+3)50/15/15/50/40 (+4)45/15/15/50/40 (+5)45/15/15/50/35 (+6)45/15/15/45/35

Plate Mail Armor: (+0)75/45/45/80/70 (+1)70/45/45/80/70 (+2)70/40/45/80/70 (+3)70/40/40/80/70 (+4)70/40/40/80/65 (+5)70/40/40/75/65 (+6)70/40/40/75/60

Full Plate Armor: (+0)95/65/65/95/90 (+1)90/65/65/95/90 (+2)90/60/65/95/90 (+3)90/60/60/95/90 (+4)90/60/60/95/85 (+5)90/60/60/90/85 (+6)90/60/60/90/80

Elven Chain: (+0)10/5/5/0/0 (+1)5/5/5/0/0 (+2)5/0/5/0/0 (+3)5/0/0/0/0 (+4)0/0/0/0/0 (+5)0/0/0/0/0 (+6)0/0/0/0/0