159 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

As the title suggests, this will be one of the new components for the upcoming v3 of Refinements. This component was planned from the start, and the time has come to put it in shape.

Armor Revisions aims to add a more important role for armors in the game, making them affect much more than your AC. As a summary, wearing different types of armors would affect your resistance vs. various forms of damage (slashing, piercing, blunt, missile), would affect your DEX (effectively reducing the possible bonuses from a higher DEX score while wearing heavier armors), and lastly it would change the movement rate of the character (light armors wouldn't affect it at all, but encumbering plates would reduce it by a fixed percent). Here are the detailed changes, based on armor type and enchantment level:


1.: Damage Reduction (%) based on armor type and Enchantment Level
The values in order: +Enchantment level, Slashing/Piercing/Blunt/Missile resistances
Comments:
While these bonuses aren't that great at first sight, we should note that these are percentual bonuses instead of fixed values. This means that one would benefit the most from heavier armors when fighting opponents with considerably high combat damage. Also, I tried to balance the specific values for the various damage types according to the armors' attributes (a Chain Mail will have additional protection against piercing weapons for example).


Leather Armor
(+0)0/0/0/0 (+1)5/0/0/0 (+2)5/5/0/0 (+3)5/5/5/0 (+4)5/5/5/5 (+5)10/5/5/5 (+6)10/10/5/5

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)5/0/0/0 (+1)5/5/0/0 (+2)5/5/5/0 (+3)5/5/5/5 (+4)10/5/5/5 (+5)10/10/5/5 (+6)10/10/10/5

Hide Armor
(+0)5/5/5/0 (+1)5/5/5/5 (+2)5/5/10/5 (+3)10/5/10/5 (+4)10/10/10/5 (+5)10/10/10/10 (+6)10/10/15/10

Chain Mail
(+0)10/10/0/5 (+1)15/10/0/5 (+2)15/10/0/10 (+3)15/10/5/10 (+4)15/15/5/10 (+5)20/15/5/10 (+6)20/15/5/15

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)15/10/0/5 (+1)15/10/0/10 (+2)15/10/5/10 (+3)20/10/5/10 (+4)20/10/10/10 (+5)25/10/10/10 (+6)25/15/10/10

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)20/10/5/15 (+1)20/15/5/15 (+2)25/15/5/15 (+3)25/15/5/20 (+4)25/20/5/20 (+5)30/20/5/20 (+6)30/20/5/25

Full Plate Armor
(+0)30/10/5/30 (+1)30/15/5/30 (+2)30/15/5/35 (+3)30/15/5/40 (+4)30/20/5/40 (+5)35/20/5/40 (+6)35/25/5/40

Elven Chain
(+0)10/10/5/5 (+1)15/10/5/5 (+2)15/10/5/10 (+3)15/10/10/10 (+4)15/15/10/10 (+5)20/15/10/10 (+6)20/15/10/15


2.: Dexterity penalties based on armor type and Enchantment Level:
Comments:
This is likely the most important part of this component when it comes to balancing. It follows a basic logical statement: a man in Full Plate won't be as agile and dextrous as in normal clothes. Also, these changes will have an even greater effect when one decides what armor to wear by a certain character. With this addition, characters with naturally high DEX scores will be able to benefit much more from light armors than before, since their natural DEX bonus will remain unchanged. On the other hand, it will make it less likely that an agile elven warrior will wear Full Plates, since he will lose most bonuses from his normal DEX that way.

Leather Armor
(+0)1 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)2 (+1)1 (+2)1 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Hide Armor
(+0)2 (+1)1 (+2)1 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Chain Mail
(+0)3 (+1)2 (+2)2 (+3)1 (+4)1 (+5)0 (+6)0

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)4 (+1)3 (+2)3 (+3)2 (+4)2 (+5)1 (+6)1

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)5 (+1)4 (+2)4 (+2)3 (+4)3 (+5)2 (+6)2

Full Plate Armor
(+0)6 (+1)5 (+2)5 (+3)4 (+4)4 (+5)3 (+6)3

Elven Chain
(+0)1 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


3.: Movement Rate penalties (%) based on armor type and Enchantment Level
Comments:
This one works similar to the DEX modifiers - the heavier that armor is, the slower you'll move. This is logical again. And while the difference won't be great (especially with highly enchanted armors), it will make it sure that a Half-Orc in Full Plate Mail won't catch your thief wearing Leathers... and that can mean a lot in combat!

Leather Armor
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)5 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Hide Armor
(+0)10 (+1)5 (+2)5 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0

Chain Mail
(+0)15 (+1)10 (+2)10 (+3)5 (+4)5 (+5)0 (+6)0

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)20 (+1)15 (+2)15 (+3)10 (+4)10 (+5)5 (+6)5

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)25 (+1)20 (+2)20 (+3)15 (+4)15 (+5)10 (+6)10

Full Plate Armor
(+0)30 (+1)25 (+2)25 (+3)20 (+4)20 (+5)15 (+6)15

Elven Chain
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


4.: Spell Failure (%) in armor based on armor type and enchantment level
Comments:
This part of the refinements adds a specific miscast penalty to arcane spellcasting. Naturally, this only applies to multi,- and dual-class mages and bards, divine spellcasting remains unchanged. Enchantment level plays an important role here as well, so a highly enchanted set of armor will be less likely to cause a spell failure than it's non-magical counterpart.

Leather Armor
(+0)15 (+1)10 (+2)10 (+3)5 (+4)5 (+5)0 (+6)0

Studded Leather Armor
(+0)20 (+1)15 (+2)15 (+3)10 (+4)10 (+5)5 (+6)5

Hide Armor
(+0)25 (+1)20 (+2)20 (+3)15 (+4)15 (+5)10 (+6)10

Chain Mail
(+0)35 (+1)30 (+2)30 (+3)25 (+4)25 (+5)20 (+6)20

Splint/Banded Mail
(+0)40 (+1)35 (+2)35 (+3)30 (+4)30 (+5)25 (+6)25

Plate Mail Armor
(+0)50 (+1)45 (+2)45 (+3)40 (+4)40 (+5)35 (+6)35

Full Plate Armor
(+0)50 (+1)45 (+2)45 (+3)40 (+4)40 (+5)35 (+6)35

Elven Chain
(+0)0 (+1)0 (+2)0 (+3)0 (+4)0 (+5)0 (+6)0


5.: Thieving Skill penalties (%) based on armor type and enchantment level
The order of skills is: Pick Pockets, Open Locks, Find/Disarm Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows
Comments:
A modification like this was already done in the G3 Tweak Pack, and this part of Armor Revisions works somewhat similar - it makes possible for dual,- and multi-thieves and rangers to use their thieving skills in heavier armors too, but only at significant penalties.

Leather Armor: (+0)0/0/0/0/0 (+1)0/0/0/0/0 (+2)0/0/0/0/0 (+3)0/0/0/0/0 (+4)0/0/0/0/0 (+5)0/0/0/0/0 (+6)0/0/0/0/0

Studded Leather: (+0)15/10/10/10/5 (+1)15/10/10/5/5 (+2)15/5/10/5/5 (+3)15/5/10/5/0 (+4)15/5/5/5/0 (+5)15/5/5/0/0 (+6)10/5/5/0/0

Hide Armor: (+0)25/20/20/20/15 (+1)25/20/20/20/10 (+2)25/20/15/20/10 (+3)25/15/15/20/10 (+4)25/15/15/15/10 (+5)25/15/15/15/5 (+6)25/10/15/15/5

Chain Mail: (+0)35/20/20/40/30 (+1)35/15/20/40/30 (+2)35/15/15/40/30 (+3)35/15/15/35/30 (+4)35/15/15/35/25 (+5)30/15/15/35/25 (+6)30/15/15/30/25

Splint/Banded: (+0)50/20/20/55/40 (+1)50/20/20/50/40 (+2)50/15/20/50/40 (+3)50/15/15/50/40 (+4)45/15/15/50/40 (+5)45/15/15/50/35 (+6)45/15/15/45/35

Plate Mail Armor: (+0)75/45/45/80/70 (+1)70/45/45/80/70 (+2)70/40/45/80/70 (+3)70/40/40/80/70 (+4)70/40/40/80/65 (+5)70/40/40/75/65 (+6)70/40/40/75/60

Full Plate Armor: (+0)95/65/65/95/90 (+1)90/65/65/95/90 (+2)90/60/65/95/90 (+3)90/60/60/95/90 (+4)90/60/60/95/85 (+5)90/60/60/90/85 (+6)90/60/60/90/80

Elven Chain: (+0)10/5/5/0/0 (+1)5/5/5/0/0 (+2)5/0/5/0/0 (+3)5/0/0/0/0 (+4)0/0/0/0/0 (+5)0/0/0/0/0 (+6)0/0/0/0/0

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 06 June 2005 - 04:53 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

OK, everything added for now.

Please post your comments on these changes!

[Littiz]

Since the Revision of the Five will require much time, while this component can be reasonably done in a very short time, we might consider to release it first.
About time we provide something entirely new, instead of component upgrades

[the bigg]

Well, how about penalties to thac0 with the heaviest armours? I'm sure a full plate is enough bulky to make it difficult to aim correctly a melee weapon [damage, instead, shouldn't vary, since the extra weight would compenstate for the clumsiness].

Also, maybe as an HLA, you can reduce permanently some penalties (like if you picked the Armour Use Feat).

[T.G.Maestro]

About time we provide something entirely new, instead of component upgrades

Right.

Well, how about penalties to thac0 with the heaviest armours? I'm sure a full plate is enough bulky to make it difficult to aim correctly a melee weapon [damage, instead, shouldn't vary, since the extra weight would compenstate for the clumsiness].

I'm not sure if this is a good idea. The modifications listed above already do a great deal of balancing (and thus nerfing heavy armors in favor of lighter ones), and this additional nerf would make those heavy plates even less useful.
Considerable at least.

Also, maybe as an HLA, you can reduce permanently some penalties (like if you picked the Armour Use Feat).

I don't know how to do such HLA, but you might have a better knowledge on this part anyway.
OTOH, it is quite vital that these penalties remain, unless every character above 20th level would face the old settings.

[T.G.Maestro]

Originally I had in mind to add elemental damage modifiers too, but I don't think they are really necessary.

Thieving Skill modifiers and Spell Failure modifiers will be added though.

[the bigg]

Also, maybe as an HLA, you can reduce permanently some penalties (like if you picked the Armour Use Feat).

I don't know how to do such HLA, but you might have a better knowledge on this part anyway.
OTOH, it is quite vital that these penalties remain, unless every character above 20th level would face the old settings.

Well, I do have a couple of ideas on implementation, which I should just streamline a bit...

And, I was suggesting something like relieving the character of [penalty / 3] rounded down:
Penalty of 0,1,2: no relieving
Penalty of 3,4,5: +1
Penalty of 6,7,8: +2
With such number, that HLA would give you the +2 in very rare cases (non-magical full plate), and a +1 only for the heaviest armors. It's not a stratospheric boost anyway

Regarding the thac0: in 3rd ed, you get a penalty to thac0 equal to the armour check penalty, but only without the armour feat; given that in BGII you would already have the feat as a class-basic one in all cases (except heavy armour & Ranger), the thac0 penalty won't come easily into play.

[the bigg]

Regarding the penalty to electrical damage with metal armour: iron isn't a very good conductor anyway That said, it is neither an insulator.

BUT... am I the only one who feels that one as too geeky?

[T.G.Maestro]

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

[Galactygon]

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

If you follow that rule, then you will have to have everyday clothes, or even robes ro reduce electrical damage.

-Galactygon

[the bigg]

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

If you follow that rule, then you will have to have everyday clothes, or even robes ro reduce electrical damage.

-Galactygon

I re-state that considering the conductiveness of the material of your armor and clothes to alter your electrical resistance is not D&D - it's geekery. Proof be that an Iron golem doesn't have -127 electrical resistance.

[T.G.Maestro]

Good points, that is basically why I dropped the idea.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 30 May 2005 - 12:25 PM.

[PolarBear]

This refinement would fit the game I guess, besides, it's good to see you guys working again

Thieving Skill modifiers and Spell Failure modifiers will be added though.

Does this mean that you would allow wizards to wear armour (with penalties) and some heavier armour for thieves (again, with penalties) aswell?

Edit: just glitch in my english

Edited by PolarBear, 30 May 2005 - 01:19 PM.

[the bigg]

This refinement would fit the game I guess, besides, it's good to see you guys working again

Thieving Skill modifiers and Spell Failure modifiers will be added though.

Does this mean that you would enable wizards to wear armour (with penalties) and some hevier armour for thieves (again, with penalties) aswell?

We don't plan to revise the unusabilities of the armours. However, multi and dual characters can wear heavier armors with penalties - somewhat similar to the component in the G3Tweak Pack, but better as there is the other additions and tweaks.

[PolarBear]

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

If you plan to go this deep, you should consider that wearing a fullplate is much more tiring (I guess) than say wearing a studded leather. So a heavily armoured warrior would fatigue sooner. I guess that's why knights preferred fighting on horsebacks

[the bigg]

Also, most armor types have an inner layer of leather to protect the body from the metallic parts and to offer some comfort while wearing the armor. This would reduce electrical damage quite efficiently.

If you plan to go this deep, you should consider that wearing a fullplate is much more tiring (I guess) than say wearing a studded leather. So a heavily armoured warrior would fatigue sooner. I guess that's why knights preferred fighting on horsebacks

No, we don't implement the electrical damage change - that one is just plain silly.
And the fatigue thing, while correct, isn't very feasible to adding; moreover, how often would that appear and actually mean anything but a rest? Answers are respectively "twice" and "never"

[PolarBear]

I know and you are correct, I didn't take that idea seriously myself

About your previous post: In this case, wouldn't this give multis and duals an advantage (again) over singleclass builds? Not that I would make a singleclass build any time in the near future... (duals are just more fun)

[T.G.Maestro]

We don't plan to revise the unusabilities of the armours. However, multi and dual characters can wear heavier armors with penalties - somewhat similar to the component in the G3Tweak Pack, but better as there is the other additions and tweaks.

Something like that, yes.

[the bigg]

I know and you are correct, I didn't take that idea seriously myself

About your previous post: In this case, wouldn't this give multis and duals an advantage (again) over singleclass builds? Not that I would make a singleclass build any time in the near future... (duals are just more fun)

Problem is, removing the unusabilities from the armours brings quite some balancing problems: leaving stalkers to only leather seems silly if thieves can wear plate, but it would be unbalanced to let stalkers wear plate, as that is their only disadvantage.

[PolarBear]

Fair enough I guess, anyway, thinking it over again, an obviously strategy would be to level up once as a fighter then dual to mage in order to gain armour usage with minimal sacrifice. However this would leave you without a kit. Yea, that's a fair tradeoff .

What about bards?

Edit: typos. again.

Edited by PolarBear, 30 May 2005 - 01:55 PM.