like wail of banshee somewhat.

edit: has two saves instead of one.

edit2: first save for death then save for damage.

i hope understanding what you meaning equals not with being on your side.
i understand it, too. i am only strongly against it.


"I think you guys overreacted a bit against the idea of XP loss. Personally I think that 1000-10000 XP is a so piss poor ammount that you are not going to notice it. Honestly."

if i follow by the letter of that, please explain to me the downside then...



"However I also see XP as the character's real power, and this is what feeds a True Dweomer imho, the caster's power, his energy (therefore energy drain spell btw)."

hmm.... *scratches head*.... if you look at it this way....

if i wouldnt know you two were dudes i would think you are a married couple. you sound like my parents sometimes.

"I agree that XP drain can be a valid balancing method. I just happen to think that it's a poor choice both design wise in terms of 2nd ed / BG & that overall concept is broken. XP = experience = learning. XP by itself is not power in 2nd ed. A mage shouldn't permanently 'forget' the lessons he has learned simply for casting a spell.

XP loss in PnP *does* happen in 3x. It does not in 2nd. 3x has other factors that balance this out. 2nd ed does not.

If a 2nd ed GM told me that I just lost XP for casting a spell I would thank him for running the game, collect my stuff, and take a hike. I say this having only quit 2 games in nearly 20 years of RPGing."

that conviced me. :thumb:




"That's the range of a TD system that drained XP. That's all of it. Measure the cost and answer yourselves. Casting 100 True Dweomers is going to cost me an average of 500k XP in the "whole" game time, and that counting with 'every' TD costing experience. Which TGM said it wouldn't be the case."

this you say is your argument for td exp loss? its more against it. you can cast 100 tds because you loose the knowledge to breath (exp.) but you cannot do it because this td uses the holy avenger +6 as component. go figure.




"Exactly. By sacrificing a potent item or a component of an item, you don't lose anything: you merely lose the possibility to gain another power, for example an uber-item. Since the game (especially ToB) is swarmed with these already, we'd require around 4-5 existing powerful items for each castings to balance, which won't happen. Understand that *not gaining more power* not equals with *sacrificing power*. THIS is the point here. "

replace items with exp and you have a counter argument.


my last post here. tgms mind is set and mine is also. i dont use it then.

Actually a pit fiend can gate in two lesser baatezu or one greater baatezu (a pit fiend is a greater baatezu) per round with 100% chance of success.

This statement is almost word for word out of the Monstrous Compendium, if I remember correctly. My point was that fighting a pit fiend is an exercise in futility, and a guarantee of certain death due solely to this ability. Allowing one to get loose from hell is a very, very bad thing, and opens a flood gate sized conduit for him to gate in his buddies to wreak havoc and mayhem. In fact, the way Demigorgon (what a tough battle) was imprisoned should represent the way all demons must be imprisoned. Summoning one should be a hair raising experience indeed. And one undertaken taken with the utmost protection, care, and caution. But once it is summoned, stand by for carnage will ensue.

Do I think a greater demon should be able to take on the toughest of enemies in the game? Absolutely. But should it be a hair raising experience? Absolutely. I think there are very few SoA or ToB enemies that should be able to stand up to one of these guys. Maybe Firkraag, , the silver dragon, Jon (of course), Kangaxx, all of the Baalspawn (except the first one in the grove of ancients), any demi-lich, etc...

okay, okay, i have read it in the book as well. a pit fiend can gate others. but you cannot implement that. you know a demilich is able to summon hundreds of liches and/or has other insanely powerfull abilities. he can kill any npc (pc would be lame ) with one thought. and every lich has a dozen of powerfull guards. but to put it in would be lame and boring.
and your second paragraph can as well describe a lich and demilich. (okay, a lich perhaps, demilich definetly)

@tgm: if you improve demons dont forget us necrophil players. any demilich can beat a demon (dont scream now not true yadda yadda, pals, you knwo what i mean).

The complaint I would have it that they should be even more powerful, but have very long casting times, and I like the idea someone mentioned about needing components.  If you needed a rogue stone or king's tear every time you cast a spell, that would curtail their use as well.  For some, they could be godly, but require things like dragon scales, lich skulls, even unique items like the Eye of Tyr.

i can live with the removel of an jewel but to use unique items is too much. you can cast it only once and that means the spell must be so powerfull that its not even funny anymore.

@dorotea: you cannot compare pnp and bg2 like you do. imagine how old and powerfull lvl 20+ npcs are in pnp and now look how fast you get the lvls and become a demigod . you kill dragons and liches with ease. imo this is a very good idea. hope tgm can put it in.

@ tgm: hmm.... perhaps it is possible to make a menu like spell immunity. and when you lvl up and want to improve your dweomer you get an additional power. this means you have to add a spell to the menu. (this means you have to erase the previous spell and put in a new one. so you have to make n spells [n is the number of powers {example: lvl 1 you get spell x, dweomer power a; lvl 2 you get spell x&y, dweomer power b; dweomer power a gets replaced with b. a consists of spell x and b of x and y. so you cannot choose which powers you get but you dont get all at once }]).
hmm.... i dont think anyone understands what i mean.

good idea.
are you able to cast all dweomers in pnp, too? isnt it better to be able to choose along the lvl ups what powers you are able to cast?

when outside (or only in the wood or whatever) rangers gain effects like invisible (every two rounds invis is cast on ranger) and/or better damage using range weapons. simulates that rangers know how to hide/hunt in the woods.

like an aura? something that benefits all summons under the casters command?

hey, what about party projected images. the whole party would be pied.
or power word: slow&confusion&malison
aura of summoning: every summons moves faster, hits harder, more hp and there is a chance that every summon spell wont be removed from memory (or that two creatures arrive)
summon shopkeeper
or something like summoning a gang. not one monster that is boring every summon spell summons one monster but a gang is cool. something like a human killer gang that fights everything that is non-human (i mean demons, undead but not elf ect). a mage/sorc, an archer, a thief, a fighter and a berserker. if possible not controllable by player. yeah, this is a must.

do you think that fits? because you dont summon a golem. you animate it. i think a powerfull summon spell fits more...

then what about the tob encounter? now renal doesnt need to send his crew to you.
i think this idea is better then the assassines renal would send, as shadowmaster pointed out.

Actually, no it wouldn't be. And what makes you all so sure that he'd send a mindless group of assassins to kill her?

sorry. i interpreted your post wrong.
i just wait what you have done for tob. because there will be a consequence as you said. cant you give a little hint?

A perfect idea, I hope you are reading this Lucy. It would keep Chloe's nature as you intended her to act, but would restore Renal's reputation from its ashes. Not to mention that it wouldn't be too much work, and you'd have to add 2 or 3 new short dialogue lines only.
She would start threatening Renal, so the PC would get a chance to shut her mouth before causing too much harm - if she would continue and keep threatening him, Arkanis Gath would appear and kill her. Not something that an author would like to add in his/her NPC mod (since nearly all NPC modders tend to make his/her character a bit more.. special ).

then what about the tob encounter? now renal doesnt need to send his crew to you.
i think this idea is better then the assassines renal would send, as shadowmaster pointed out.

"That is, Renal is looking down the barrel of a large gun and its pointed at his head. That is Chloe and her new friends. He wants to save his skin"

he is a high lvl leader of a very powerfull organisation. do you really think he has to fear such a little gang? he quaffs a potion and is gone and summons immediatly an asassine squad that backstabs the whole party into sliced bread.

Lucky me, since there seems to be more than enough 18+ INT characters running around these forum lately... guess we'll never run out of wise people!

i, like, counter that and stuff. my int is, like, 5 or so.

i think just make them stronger is enough. though i like it to implement flying dragons but jumping dragons is not my kind of fun. especially since their lairs are not made for that, imo.

that is a most brilliant idea rathwellin. not sleep in the dungeon and such a great script will make this fight really

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

i find this battle pretty tough.

the battles shouldnt be endless reload orgies. a 900hp red dragon (35% res for phys, 40%mag res, fire immune, rest 20%) with a near end soa party or even with one hla is too much. dont forget the team wants to add minions to some of the dragons. imagine someone wants to play only one or two mods? he cant do this with dragon revision.
the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like.

"Understandable, but I'd once again call your attention to their differencies in Age cathegories. I know, those levels are my imagination only, but it'd help show the difference in difficulty between those dragons. An Adult Red Dragon would have around 300, an Ancient around 400, a Wyrm level around 520 and a Great Wyrm above 650.
And the same goes for damage resistances - those stats will increase with age cathegories too!"

umm.... those hps are based on your bg2 experience not on pnp dragons. iirc, a hd is a 8-sided dice if not stated otherwise and old daddy dragons have like 20 hit dices. this is not 600hp.
nah, doesnt matter. the main thing is dragons pose a threat to low lvl crap heroes aka heroes >lvl16.




"Not entirely Galactygon. No matter how much we try to follow pnp, we must accept the fact that BG2 IS NOT PNP. Things work differently in this game. While I'd prefer the idea to lower XPs and such (as you intend to do in LC), it would result in complete disaster in the long run - many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities. If you make every party weaker (in level and equipment), encounters like the Ascension Five would become impossible. Could you provide a good tactic vs. Improved Abazigal for a 16th-18th level party? Or what would you suggest, uninstalling these mods? Um, sorry, but no.
You see, BG2's system is set, just as the system of pnp. And they are not the same. Trying to mix them too much can result in bad things."

the problem is with balancing the mods that place new monsters in the game. this results in extra exp/items and thus you get more powerfull. resulting in creating more powerfull monsters that give too much exp. or if you place new quests in game you get more exp making anything after that more easy. creating quests that give nothing would be boring (for me at least).
what to do? lower the exp overrall. imagine someone installs every mod that gives extra exp. he then playes the game and modifys it so you are at the lvl cap from soa at the end of soa. so it is balanced again.

"Still, if these HPs prove unbeatable, we can tone them down by 20% or so."

the other dragons seems beatable. only the 560 and 650 are over the top for me.



"Um. Imagine a colossal ancient beast towering before you. I doubt you wouldn't find it charismatic... "





"Nothing indicates such a high resistance to physical attacks. I'd try to stick to (semi)official bonuses."

again i say, physical resistance is like extra hp. so dont go and raise everything. the shadow has aprox 25% more life. think about it.



"Heh, that would be a nice one, but I fear it is not that easy."

a)one spell for healing potion
b)one spell for super healing potion
c)one spell for extra ordinary super healing potion
script to check if extra super ordinary healing potion is in inventory.
if yes cast spell. this spell has a success rate of x%.
if not check for super healing potion
if super healing potion is in inv
....
should work (or not )


"It is not permanent. And it only drains 6 levels without save, the additional 5 requires a save vs. breath at 0."

thought it would be perm. even 6 is high. after three casts you are dead.



"Uhm, sorry, I inteded to deflect those missiles, not reflect them . But who uses normal missiles against Dragons anyway?"

me. i am too greedy to afford those super expensive +1 arrows (no joke! ).

"I don't think they are unbeatable at all. I was able to kill improved Abazigal (and he had a lot of assistants, even an adult dragon) and he had 500 HP. I was doubting just because they had more than Abazigal. But seeing how TG calculated the HP, I think he is right. "

so you say you beat imp aba with soa chars with lvl 17 or 18?
the hp of the dragons are tgm guessing for balance and not calculated. he still can change them if we whine enough.



"I don't agree. After level 20, you won't receive too much bonuses : the THAC0 is capped at 0, the saving throws are capped also. I mean : they are beatable (don't forget they don't have any assistance). "

sure. not all dragons should have assistances. if all dragons become assistances it would be boring because its repetative. some if not most should be tough enough alone. (arent dragons solo creatures? or do they always have someone around?). was a hint for tob to not give every dragon goons.
ehm... you become more powerfull over tob, you know?




"If a player can beat this version of Firkraag with a party that lacks TOB level items, spells and HLAs then I'm darn impressed by his SOA skills."

and patience for reloads.




"His Tougher Sendai proves the contrary, but hey..! "

is it for high modded games with more powerfull n/pcs? i dont think so.

First, TG says that Firk won't have minions.
Second, a party can reach around 3,5 million XP without any mods. And if you do some quest with fewer party members, the XP will be even higher.
Third, I really believe that TG will test those dragons and lower their bonuses if they are too tough.
I just wanted to point that I don't find Firk's HP so scary. But, until I'll try it, I'm half-blind.

"the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like. "

am i allowed to quote myself?
sure. a three man team can annihilate everything. i even imagine i could beat the entire game without reloading with all kind of mods. but this has nothing to do with it. do you think balancing this way is really good balancing? i think this is a very, very bad balancing. and if memory serves the target of this mod is to balance the game and make the battles more fun and challengeing and not powergamers wet dreams.
and again i say, a party should not have 3.5mio exp at this point and i dont think all dragon fights should be the last. i think about the shadow dragon here. he seems okay to beat before go go to the underdark. firkraag should definatly be one of the last fights. and the others are set in stone.

isnt ai supposed to stop +4 and +5 gets through? i heard about an error in description or an error in the spell or something.

you better do what you say yourself. do you know how many times i needed to reload to kill the stupid dragon that spawns exactly where you enter the map (one of those wood maps)? no? i dont know either but it was stretched over two days because i lost patiences. on top of it i always got nailed with two dragon breaths. at last i had to resort to cheese to kill it. (tripple fod and such things.)

isnt it more important to look upon those numbers that make a difference gameplay wise? if it has 15 dex or 21 dex is not so much of a difference for an npc, its more aestethics. instead you should change the res of the demons according to the mm. *hint*