I think that a good RPG can be made within 12 months providing that it's built around a pre-existing graphics engine etc.

This was the case with KOTOR 2, but the people at Lucas Arts were so hellbent on rushing the game out for Christmas 2004 that they were prepared to make any sacrifices to meet their goal. Some people might actually view the release of an incomplete game as acceptable as long as sales of the game itself reach projected sales figures.

Does anyone know the official sales figures for KOTOR 2?

Hatred.

Why is it a shame, or sad to think of any character Viconia, Anomen, Nalia, or Minse (just throwing out examples) is bisexual or gay. It would break your heart? Why? Because it would mean you wouldn't feel comfortable romancing her even in the hetero mod?

If those characters were bisexual (for example), I wouldn't have a real problem with them. The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't. This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character, which is something I don't find acceptable.

This mod is a lie.

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.

(And why did you wait until now to bring this up (again)? The mod has been in production for quite a while now.)

I never thought this mod would actually leave the concept stages given how unbelievable it is. Also, I'm not the most active member of this community anymore, so I don't visit this place as often as I once did. What does it matter anyway? It's not as if people aren't free to critique mods whenever they want.

Obsessing over this is not making you look very good...

Whatever gave you that impression? I'm not obsessed: I'm annoyed. There's a difference.

The source of my annoyance is not your freedom to write a pornographic work of fiction, but the mindset that inspires someone to rewrite a pre-existing character without giving a thought to their true identity. Why is it so impossible to keep a character in character? Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form. Write your own character instead of twisting an official one into someone who fits your vision of her. By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?

You claim that Viconia views other women in a more positive light simply because women are the dominent gender in Drow society. The truth of the matter is she sees other women as potential rivals. The beauty of Viconia's character was that she was indoctrinated by Drow culture to practically despise men, and yet at the same time, she's a slave to her lust for/attraction to men. Was everything we learned about Viconia a lie? Your mod will make her inner struggle against ingrained Drow cultural norms and values meaningless.

There is at least one conversation she has with Jaheira that has at least a touch of lesbian subtext to it...

You call that proof? Quote a line from Viconia's dialogue where she actually hits on another woman in an explicit fashion, and then I'll believe you. For a person who was exposed to a culture that's so sexually active and promiscuous, a Drow woman like Viconia would have no qualms about making a direct pass at *anyone* she found attractive, if she was indeed bisexual. As it stands, the official Viconia will only romance male characters. Why is that, I wonder?!

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Viconia despises elves/half elves more than she does men. Why on Earth would she hit on a half elven female in the light of everything we know about her? In actual fact, this rewrite is based on what we don't know about her.

There's no concrete proof she's straight either, by which I mean to say, Viconia doesn't say she's straight ever...

Dear God, not this nonsensical reasoning again. By your logic every character we encounter in the game could potentially be bisexual merely because they don't advertise their heterosexuality/homosexuality. This could apply to any number of fictional female characters you happen to find attractive. Is nothing sacred? The truth of the matter is you and the people who support the creation of this mod *want* Viconia to be bisexual. If that's the case, then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Just admit it.

Hell, Viconia could be attracted to animals too for all we know; after all, there's no proof in the games suggesting she isn't a secret admirer of everyday beasts of burden.

The one thing I cannot understand is people's tolerance towards this mod. Feel free to tear my arguments apart. If I write another lengthy post regarding this mod, dare I say it will be in the appropriate forum.

Why didn't you post this at G3?

I probably should have, but I'm used to the community here. Besides, I'd probably find more support for the mod at its point of origin. I might be tempted to post there sooner or later, though I doubt that anything short of the hand of God will stop the creation of this mod now that it has gained momentum.

Is there a particular reason you've completely ignored my line of argument?

You mean this:

Why the fuck does it matter if you change the characterisation of an NPC?

For the simple reason that they are no longer the same person we came to know and love. Write a new character; don't rewrite an old one who conforms with your own personal vision of them.

Excuse me, but how is making her bisexual = making her 'sleep with anything' or make this mod a 'pornographic work'?

Forgive me for thinking that the purpose of this mod was to make some drastic changes to Viconia's character in order to make her receptive to a romantic fling with another female, or am I missing something here? Why else would you make such changes if not to explore that *non-existent* side of Viconia's character? What else would inspire the creation of this mod other than to see Viconia lust after another women? Romance? That's a difference that makes no difference. People will download this mod just to see Viconia buckle under the pressure of a constant bombardment of female affection. After all, even the straightest of women secretly ache with desire for other women. Whatever.

Would you say the same thing about Harry Potter fan fiction that depicts our hero Harry in a relationship with Draco Malfoy? Or maybe Ginny Weasely in a loving and sexual relationship with Hermione Granger? Or would you say the same about other kinds of slash pairings? Dax/Kira? Picard/Riker? Tom/Harry? Xena/Gabrielle? Sam Carter/Janet Fraiser?

I don't see how a female character engaging in a romance with Viconia would be believable. The official Viconia doesn't show any signs of being sexually attracted to women at all. If the real Viconia isn't interested in other women, then why change her into something she is not? Surely a sexually aggressive woman such a Viconia would've expressed an interest in women before now if she actually burned with desire for them?

...this isn't the first time you've argued against homosexuality/bisexuality in a mod?

I'm not against homosexual romance mods per se. I'm just against modders thinking they can alter the fabric of an NPC's identity without giving their original character any consideration. So far, mods have added a homosexuspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netal facet to the personalities of Imoen, and Solaufein (even Nalia has shared this fate). Who's next? Where do we draw the line? Modders have turned these characters into their own personal yet distorted vision of them instead of doing everything in their power to keep these characters as true to their original counterparts as possible. From what we know about Viconia, she isn't bisexual. That's the crux of my argument.

This mod is not porn. It's not even going near porn...

I'm curious: how many female gamers will download this mod for the friendship alone? A friendship with Viconia is a good idea. Good luck getting Viconia to open up though.

Yes, there's a much more subtle power struggle that goes on between female drow...

Yeah, they kill each other for positions of power; in contrast, they use men as tools to achieve their goals. You could say that Viconia would have more respect for women, but she can't help loving men. You're seeing homosexual leanings where there isn't any.

And even if this mod was just to expand a friendship with a female, would you object and say it makes that part of her story meaningless?

If Viconia was bisexual, why would she search for comfort from a gender she was taught to regard as inferior (men)? Her love/hate relationship with men and the fact that she cannot change who she is in that respect or ignore her desires is an integral part of her character. A friendship with another women would be more believable than a romance with one.

No, I call it subtext... And I already said that subtext is subjective. What I see in the lines I quoted, it's obvious that you don't see it.

Ooh, such delicious fire! What lovely indignation! Shower me with it please, as I love the venting of pent up aggression.

Umm... she still romances half-elf males

Yeah, males. Viconia calls Jaheira a "half breed mongrel" in one of their conversations, but I will concede this point.

And because you are of the opinion that unless we see it, it doesn't exist - that means according to you no one in the Forgotten Realms (of computer games) is bisexual or homosexual.

I never said that. I just think if you want to change an official character into a raving homosexual, you need some proof to justify that change. I'm sure people of every sexual persuasion inhabit the Forgotten Realms, but I'm equally sure that Viconia isn't among those who would call themselves bisexual.

It wouldn't matter if people tollerated it or not. I'm not doing this for everyone else out there, I'm doing it for me. What next? You want people to come out and send hate mail to the dirty lezzy mod writer?

Actually, I just think that this community is far too liberal for its own good. Even back when the community was thriving on the old BioWare boards, the vast majority of people openly condemned anyone who didn't appreciate Weimer ruining Solaufein's orginal character. He went too far. When I argued that Imoen couldn't possibly be bisexual on a certain message board I was banned almost immediately. So much for tolerance (though after reading the official BG2 novel I'm not so sure about Imoen anymore). Other than Miss Kitty and Riona, I receive the distinct impression that there aren't any straight women in this community, so you probably feel right at home. For what it's worth, good luck with your mod.

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?

What do I want? I don't want modders to pervert official characters into something they were never meant to be. That's what I want.

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began. As for the purpose of this topic, I want to know how others feel about this particular mod.

Ok, so someone came up with the bright idea of expanding Viconia's character by making her romanceable by females despite the fact that the official Viconia shows no signs of liking women whatsoever.

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea. The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.

No, no one is forcing any of us to download this mod. However, that does not change the fact that this mod is folly incarnate, or in other words, a bad idea. The Baldur's Gate 2 modding community keeps stooping to new lows, and I find it very disheartening indeed.

Viconia is straight whether certain people like it or not. There is no other reason for rewriting her original character than for the sake of titilation. Everyone here will no doubt disagree with me, but I find the mere thought of it absolutely ridiculous.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

My point is that Viconia is sure of her sexuality, if she was anything other than hetero then it would be shown, but it's not, so it saddens me greatly that this mod would even be thought of, and would break my heart to see so many people believing her to be something that she isn't.

I know how you feel. Like I wrote before, the tragedy is people will start believing this mod is a true representation of Viconia's character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Hence, the suggestion of prejudice.

It's no secret that many men and apparently most of the women who populate the BG2 modding community would prefer it if Viconia was bisexual. Turning Viconia into something she isn't for these people who see a bisexual Viconia as ideal is a poor justification.

My opposition to this mod isn't motivated by prejudice.

Longinus, you argue that one should not change the official charter crated by the Bioware to something she's not. Yet you said that writing a friendship path would be alright. As you know, in the official version of Biware's Viconia a friendship is not an option for either male of female PC. Is there something in the game that in your opinion would suggest that she would make friends with the PC under any circumstances?

I say that it's a bigger change in her character to allow her to be a friend with the PC than it is to change (or expand) the target of her romantic affection. It is a relatively small and unimportant change after all, not really requiring changes in her personality. This being my humble opinion of course.

I think a friendship would be far more believable than Viconia suddenly finding herself attracted to other women after years and years of exploring her sexual desires. If she was sexually or romantically attracted to women she would've expressed interest in them long before now. Also, this myth circulating the modding community that the vast majority of Drow are bisexual is exactly that: a myth. The myth in question probably stems from an individual's perception of the Drow, as no source material will corroborate it.

I support modders who do their best to keep their mods consistent with established canon, or as consistent as possible. This mod, unfortunately, can make no such claim.

I don't think it is right to say that a mod should not exist.  However I think it is perfectly fine to play a mod and write an honest review of it.  Write a scathing review of a mod if you think it sucked and give constructive criticism.  That would be more beneficial (although perhaps a bit rude) then condemning an uncompleted project outright.

I'd rather not see this mod come to fruition; it has no place in the modding community as far as I'm concerned.

A lot of people want Viconia to be bisexual because Baldur's Gate 2 somehow planted the seed of her being a no-hold bars porn star in their minds. In other words, everyone wants her to be bisexual merely because she has a pretty portrait. Now their dreams have come true. Now she *is* bisexual because some mod made her so.

Is that what this community has become? Does no one have any sense of integrity? Expanding Viconia's character is one thing; making her everyone's wet dream is another.

The character YOU know and love. Some people find the character of Viconia, Mellissan, or the Chinchilla rather lacking, so they choose to adjust/rewrite it, given that there's No Reason Why Not To™.

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

This mod defeats the purpose of accepting Viconia for who she is (i.e. a heterosexual Drow female who isn't as evil as she appears or is more evil than you can imagination if she isn't guided out of the darkness of her own inner turmoil).

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses.

So you're saying people's motivations only matter if they involve altering a character to be bisexual? That sounds pretty prejudiced against bisexuality to me.

That's not what I meant at all. What I mean is there's a difference between creating your own character and rewriting an official one to better suit someone's needs.

If the community ends up agreeing with your opinion, the piece in question will wither away from neglect and disinterest. If the community finds the piece exciting and interesting then it can be argued that further pursuit of forcing your opinions on the community is not so much in the community's best interest as it is indulging your own sense of vanity. Anyone who tries to force any sort of morality on a resistant public isn't acting for the public good. They are trying to make everyone see how "right" they are.

Unfortunately, I'm in the minority here, so most of the community isn't going to agree with me. Almost everyone is already convinced that Viconia is the uninhibited concubine of the Drow.

Writing a mod shouldn't just reflect what the community at large wants, but what we can reasonably expect from the expansion of anyone's character. My opinion has nothing to do with concepts of right and wrong. This mod isn't within reason: it serves to satisfy a desire. Nothing more, nothing less. Making Viconia bisexual turns her into a living lie. Plain and simple.

Will that stop people from downloading the mod? No.

...considering that Viconia could be a more complex character than you thought is rather threatening to you and your ego...

About being a homophobe, that is indeed is evident; if you weren't the idea of exploring a possible different sexual orientation for that character or any character in general would not be an issue...

Sorry man, but I'm not afraid of homosexuals in the least, and thus, cannot be homophobic in the true sense of the word. Why does opposing the idea of changing Viconia into something she clearly isn't automatically mean I'm homophobic to you?

There's no point in arguing anymore, as nearly everyone is convinced that Viconia is in fact bisexual and that straight women don't actually exist. In the light of this blind and unquestioning acceptance it would almost be pointless to continue.

I think we can safely add Viconia to the list of official characters ruined by a modder's wanton desire to recreate those characters in their own image.

The problem is you can't shape real people into whatever you want them to be. You can only appreciate them for who they are.

You *are* aware that Viconia isn't a real person, but a character in a game ... right?

You missed my point. You can't change a real person into someone you want them to be any more than you can change an original character in BG2. See my point? This mod is just changing Viconia into someone players want her to be (bisexual) rather than keeping her true to her original character, which speaks volumes about the fading integrity of the modding community.

...because he doesn't have an argument strong enough to refute the the real issues.

I don't need to refute anything. Judging from your post though, it seems as if you're doing everything in your power portray me as the embodiment of intolerance when I am far from it.

From everything we know about Viconia, she has no desire to sleep with other women. Can *you* refute that? No, I didn't think so.

I don't want Viconia to become something she was never meant to be (bisexual). That's all. Why is that so impossible to believe? Why must you vilify me for it?

What is it about these alternate ideas that makes you feel so threatened?

You're reading into my posts too much. I don't feel threatened -- I just feel that modders are going too far with their ideas.

Forgive me if I have no desire to see modders turn Viconia into a shadow of her former self. This mod isn't a product of creativity so much as it is the product of desire. Plain and simple.

You keep trying to villify me as if I have no right to object to this premise. As if I'm the one who's wrong. Wake up.

I know I should not feed the troll...

Just because my opinions conflict with yours doesn't automatically mean I'm a troll. If attacking the lone voice of dissent makes you feel better about yourself, then by all means continue to do so.

If it IS sarcasm, then forgive me if I ask, that how do you know what is in women's minds?

Is this the part where you start harping on about how all women are bisexual?

Yes, I was being sarcastic. Not all women are sexually attracted to other women. That's a fact of life, believe it or not. Viconia shows no signs of finding other women sexually attractive, which leads us back to my original point: writing her to be bisexual simply wouldn't be believable.

Not that it's relevant, but I have dated women and I do have a girlfriend whom I understand very well. She's straight by the way. I couldn't change her sexuality even if I wanted to, and I don't. Contrary to popular opinion, and much to your chagrin, men can be very good at understanding women.

I mean... so what if they complete it? Why does this hurt you so much? Im sure there will be a lot of people who like it and will want to play it, why would you prevent them from doing so?

Because the mod is a bad idea. Because it's not true to the original character. You name it. The tragedy is people will actually think that this new and improved Viconia is a true representation of her original character when nothing could be further from the truth.

Viconia isn't a real person, and as much as you'd like to argue that it doesn't make any difference, it does. You're right, I can't change a real person. However, I CAN change Viconia... look, I just did. So, given the chance, why shouldn't I make the game more fun?

You can change her into someone more suited to your needs, but you'll never change her official character. Only the creators of the game have the right to do that. In real life you have to accept people for who they are; why not do the same with Viconia? Why not keep her true to her original character?

I'm all for believable mods, but this isn't one of them.

Last time I checked, nobody needed to justify anything to you. They need to justify it within the game context, and that's done by altering her character.

If the creators want us to believe that this mod is a believable extension of Viconia's character, then of course they need to justify it, which as far as I can tell cannot be done.

If modders want Viconia to be bisexual for no other reason than that, then at least they are being honest. Saying that this mod is true to Viconia's character is laughable in the eyes of all but the people who want to believe she is bisexual.

It is also interesting, that you seem to know my sexual preferences and the way I feel about men in generally without knowing me in person.

And what I really don't share is the opinion, that there should be someone to say what kind of mods people should make or should not make.

So there should be no boundaries as to what modders can and cannot make? I see.

As for you, I've been here long enough to become familiar with the various types of people who call this community home. If I made an assumption about you it would probably be close to the truth.

I've always wondered why male players won't even consider romancing any of the available romanceable male characters in BG2 when female players are all too eager to romance female characters. Doesn't "role playing" work both ways? I don't suppose I have to wonder why there's such a huge demand for female-female romances anymore, however. What happened to all the straight women? I guess this phenomenom goes with the territory.

I suggest you solidify your argument before you claim anything is a "lie", since you contradict yourself merely a paragraph above.

"The problem is from everything we know about Viconia she isn't." implies that the mod is altering Viconia's character.

"This mod aims to explore a non-existent side of her character" implies that the mod is expanding it.

Making Viconia bisexual would be altering her character into a lie, and expanding her character to reveal a side of her that never actually existed [before] would be the equivalent of lying too, as in it would be inconsistent with the truth.

As you are already no doubt aware, I don't believe this mod is true to Viconia's original character. I can't see how anyone can disagree with my stance. However, I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you, so let's just agree to disagree.

You defeat your own argument here because you make it abundantly clear that you can see no other possible role for bisexual people apart from fulfilling sexual fantasies.

I never wrote that. I wrote that making Viconia bisexual would be the equivalent of turning her into someone's fantasy -- someone's ideal version of her. If this had nothing to do with sex, or fulfilling a desire, then why make her bisexual?

You have once more selectively ignored Domi's point. Out of arguments?

I've made my case -- nothing short of Viconia's original writer stating that she was never intended to be anything other than heterosexual will convince you she is heterosexual. I dare say even then this mod would go ahead as planned.

Viconia's original writer is the only person who has any right to *officially* expand her original character, or make *official* changes. That's the perogative of whoever invented her. Domi's point is therefore moot. Adding a homosexual facet to Viconia's character isn't a believable expansion of her character no matter how well-written it may be.

By your logic everyone in the game is potentially bisexual simply because there's nothing in the game to prove otherwise. You could make any number of claims without any evidence to support it. That's inane reasoning by any measure.

All the evidence in the game points to Viconia being heterosexual. There is no evidence indicating she's bisexual (nothing). Now you expect us to believe that she is in fact bisexual? What a joke. The truth is the official Viconia is heterosexual -- nothing points to anything else.

Believe what you want. I shall be the first to point out that this mod is *unofficial* to anyone who believes it is an accurate portrayal of her character.

Also, just because I don't approve of this mod doesn't mean I'm a bigot. Victimize someone who deserves it.

Is it inconceivable that they write a lesbian romances for any reason other than personal fantasy?

JCompton wrote Kelsey as a romance for women. By your reasonning... this is so he can achieve his fantasy of a gay romance with himself?

Kelsey was JCompton's creation and not a rewritten BioWare character. It doesn't matter why he wrote Kelsey because he wasn't a bisexual version of an official character designed to titilate the masses. What other reason is there for changing Viconia in such a manner other than to appease the desires of gamers drooling over the mere thought of Viconia having a fling with another woman? Enlighten me.