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The new and "improved" Viconia romance.


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#1 Longinus

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 08:38 AM

Ok, so someone came up with the bright idea of expanding Viconia's character by making her romanceable by females despite the fact that the official Viconia shows no signs of liking women whatsoever.

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea. The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.

No, no one is forcing any of us to download this mod. However, that does not change the fact that this mod is folly incarnate, or in other words, a bad idea. The Baldur's Gate 2 modding community keeps stooping to new lows, and I find it very disheartening indeed.

Viconia is straight whether certain people like it or not. There is no other reason for rewriting her original character than for the sake of titilation. Everyone here will no doubt disagree with me, but I find the mere thought of it absolutely ridiculous.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Edited by Longinus, 16 August 2004 - 08:40 AM.

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#2 Thorium Dragon

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 09:00 AM

Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

So long as the authors to a mod let people know what direction they are writing in so that players can make an informed decision as to whether or not to play it, I don't have a problem.

I am generally not in favor of dramatically altering existing characters with well defined personalities.

However, any alteration to a beloved character will cause some friction among the community of players (believe me I know! <HINT> :vbat: </HINT> :) ). So I think it's best to keep an open mind until a project is finished.

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#3 CamDawg

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 09:25 AM

After reading through a topic at the relevant forum regarding this non sequitur given the form of the drow female we all know and love as Viconia, I wasn't surprised to notice that it was locked as soon as no more than two people disagreed with the idea.

G3 does not lock threads or delete posts for disagreements--it runs counter to a forum's purpose. The sole thread to which you refer was locked due to the mod expanding to a forum--it was locked and preserved for archival purposes. Please feel free to add your thoughts in the 'General Viccy Debate' thread, which was set up explicitly to address concerns such as this. You'll see that there has already been a great deal of back and forth on the subject.

The people who lept to the defense of the mod were (surprise, surprise) men and bisexual/gay women.

Please don't generalize--it would also lead to the (incorrect) conclusion that anyone who disagrees is a straight female or gay/bisexual male.

No, no one is forcing any of us to download this mod. However, that does not change the fact that this mod is folly incarnate, or in other words, a bad idea. The Baldur's Gate 2 modding community keeps stooping to new lows, and I find it very disheartening indeed.

How is this a new low, exactly? Have there never been bad ideas for mods before? Or mods that use a character's sexuality to portray the character?

Viconia is straight whether certain people like it or not. There is no other reason for rewriting her original character than for the sake of titilation. Everyone here will no doubt disagree with me, but I find the mere thought of it absolutely ridiculous.

Fantastic. Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

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#4 Longinus

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 09:45 AM

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?

What do I want? I don't want modders to pervert official characters into something they were never meant to be. That's what I want.

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began. As for the purpose of this topic, I want to know how others feel about this particular mod.

Edited by Longinus, 16 August 2004 - 09:51 AM.

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#5 CamDawg

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 09:58 AM

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.

I was addressing the false claim of G3 censorship and asking you not to generalize when making your arguments. I did not address the merits of any of your points because I happen to agree with them a lot more than I disagree.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?

I didn't--I asked why you felt this was a 'new low.'

What do I want? I don't want modders to pervert official characters into something they were never meant to be. That's what I want.

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.

Fantastic, we agree on both points then.

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.

And the place to address this is in the thread to which I directed you--the authors of the romance have presented why they feel this is not a mischaracterization. The logical place to pick up this debate would be there, with the authors.

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began.

I'm not debating your points--I was trying to address the false claim of G3 censorship and to ask you to please not generalize when making your points. Stronger arguments against the mod have already been made. I'll let one of the mod authors address the merits of your arguments.

G3 works very hard to allow everyone express their viewpoints, especially when it comes to a core tenet of a mod. Please don't claim that we're trying to shut down debate on a topic, when there's a very active topic on the matter already.

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#6 SimDing0

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 10:11 AM

I say again:

Why the fuck does it matter if you change the characterisation of an NPC? Mischaracterising an NPC so that they behave inconsistently within the game is bad. Altering their characterisation to be inferior to the original character is bad. However, there is no reason for developer intent to be sacred, and if I can change the Chinchilla into a completely different, but more interesting character, then that's good.
Therefore, the remaining argument against these type of mods is that they make the character worse than the original. However, that's far more subjective than what you're implying, so it's a rather weak argument.

Edited by SimDing0, 16 August 2004 - 10:14 AM.

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#7 J Beau

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 10:11 AM

I agree with you 100% Longinus. There are probably more people here that agree with you than you think.
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#8 Thorium Dragon

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 10:15 AM

Finally, an ugly argument over altering an existing character that doesn't involve me! :thumb:

My 2: Agree to disagree and move on.

The goal is to have fun with all of this, after all.

Now make nice, lest I blast you with my breath weapon! ;)

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#9 DevilishPope

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 12:15 PM

Yes, Yes, thats all good and well, not altering original NPC's that come with the game.
Now excuse me while I go work on "Ollie the Half-Orc Transgender Shaman of Amn".
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#10 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 16 August 2004 - 12:55 PM

I'm not gonna bother going through your posts and make a witty response to each sentence (because Cam's already done that for me) but I'd like to make three things quite clear.

1) Your points have all been said before. I'm not going to repeat myself again and again. If you want reasons for this mod then kindly read through the original thread.

2) I'm not a pervert. I'm not some lonely bastard who gets off on the thought of lesbian relationships. My reasons for creating this mod are also in the aforementioned thread.

3) If you want to express an opinion on this mod I recommend you do so in the forums but please read and see what has already been said, before you do.

Have a nice day.

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 16 August 2004 - 01:05 PM.

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#11 Zandilar

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 12:46 AM

Heya,

Since you've stated your opinion definitively and there is no room to disagree, what exactly are you seeking, since it's not open-minded debate?

Judging from your tone, you obviously don't appreciate a mere difference of opinion.


People are allowed to disgaree, Longinus. Just so long as you realise that disagreements inherantly mean differing opinions. You don't agree with me or Grim... Fine. That's great. End of story.

There have been some great examples of atrocious mods before now (like Weimer's Solaufein and Lord Mirrabo's Imoen), but this is by far the worst example of someone having the audacity to twist an official character into someone who meets their sexual needs. Tell me why I should find this acceptable?


I haven't played Sola, but I have played Lord Mirabbo's Imoen romance mod. It is not the way I would have gone about doing things, but it's far from atrocious.

You don't have to find it acceptable. But you could have brought your problems to the forum (well actually, you did, way back when this mod was first being talked about) in which the mod lives instead of skulking around then attacking from the shadows. (And why did you wait until now to bring this up (again)? The mod has been in production for quite a while now.)

If people want to introduce gay/bisexual characters into the game, fine. But don't currupt, pollute, poison, or ruin official characters just because you want them to be something they are not.


Longinus, slash fanfic is as old as the Original Star Trek. This is the "mod" equivelant. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. You don't even have to think about it. In fact it would probably be better if you just forgot that this mod was in production - at least that way you'd stop loosing sleep over it (as you obviously have). Obsessing over this is not making you look very good, and in fact the use of the words "corrupt, pollute, poison, or ruin" almost makes you sound homophobic (NO, I am NOT calling you a homophobe).

Where's the proof showing in no uncertain terms that Viconia is bisexual? The game made it absolutely crystal clear that she prefers men. Have you never met good-looking, sexually aggressive straight women in real life? I have. Not being a prude doesn't automatically amount to being bisexual.


There is at least one conversation she has with Jaheira that has at least a touch of lesbian subtext to it. But I must add, I don't need proof. There's no concrete proof she's straight either, by which I mean to say, Viconia doesn't say she's straight ever - even though she does show a strong preference for men... but being a drow she intereacts with strong females in a different way than she would with men. (Which we don't actually get to see, since Viconia only has one conversation with female PCs.)

Here's the conversation she has with Jaheira...

Jaheria: Avert your eyes, dark elf.  I'll not have you taint the beauty of the wood with your poison gaze.

Viconia: Would you deny me even the sight of the trees, Jaheira?  I can appreciate the strength of the oak, even though I would never live amongst them.

Jaheira: I am not to be swayed by your words, creature.  I know too much of you and your kind.

Viconia: Ooo, such delicious fire, though better it was turned on an enemy.  I would be your ally, Jaheira; your strength might even bring you respect among my kind.

Jaheira: Lies.  Such respect would grant me naught but a bigger tombstone, or a nameless grave in a slightly nicer tunnel.

Viconia: Granted you might not live to make that favorable impression, but I still say it is so. Take that as you will.


There's subtext there if you care to look. But I have a feeling you're going to say otherwise. (Literally, it just shows Viconia showing respect for Jaheira's spirit, but subtext is a different issue and generally involves the perceptions of the reader which is highly subjective...)

Sorry man, but this "debate" was over before it began. As for the purpose of this topic, I want to know how others feel about this particular mod.


People are entitled to have their opinions, and I respect that and I respect their opinions. But at this stage, there isn't anything you or anyone else can say that will stop me from writing this. (I'm my own worst enemy generally, but opposition is more likely to strengthen my resolve than discourage me.)

I just want to remind everyone that slash and femmeslash are old "genres" that have quite a following on the 'net. Viconia won't be the first or the last (literary/movie/comic/game) character to be given a "queer" slant that they show no evidence of (I disagree on the no evidence part, but that's neither here nor there).

#12 Aion

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:27 AM

If modders wish to create altering Mods, then by all means, let them do it.
No one *has* to download and use it. Just because people would disagree, doesn't mean the Mod shouldn't exist. If you don't mind alteration Mods, then it's fine. If you don't like them, then it's fine. :P

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#13 Immortality

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:55 AM

Well, what can I say, not everyone like the same things, I think the idea of "<insert NPC name here> relationships" are good, and even better if its well written (and as Dave is working on it, I'm confident it is :)).

Particularly, I dont like Viconia, never did, never have her in my party so there's no need for me to play it. But hell, :thumb: for Dave and Zandilar :)

Longinus: Its ok to disagree! :)
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#14 J Beau

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:08 AM

Immortality, The Immortal Diplomat :D
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#15 J Beau

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:09 AM

oops!

Edited by J Beau, 17 August 2004 - 11:12 AM.

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#16 J Beau

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:10 AM

:huh:

Edited by J Beau, 17 August 2004 - 11:13 AM.

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#17 Longinus

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 11:48 AM

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.

(And why did you wait until now to bring this up (again)? The mod has been in production for quite a while now.)


I never thought this mod would actually leave the concept stages given how unbelievable it is. Also, I'm not the most active member of this community anymore, so I don't visit this place as often as I once did. What does it matter anyway? It's not as if people aren't free to critique mods whenever they want.

Obsessing over this is not making you look very good...


Whatever gave you that impression? I'm not obsessed: I'm annoyed. There's a difference.

The source of my annoyance is not your freedom to write a pornographic work of fiction, but the mindset that inspires someone to rewrite a pre-existing character without giving a thought to their true identity. Why is it so impossible to keep a character in character? Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form. Write your own character instead of twisting an official one into someone who fits your vision of her. By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?

You claim that Viconia views other women in a more positive light simply because women are the dominent gender in Drow society. The truth of the matter is she sees other women as potential rivals. The beauty of Viconia's character was that she was indoctrinated by Drow culture to practically despise men, and yet at the same time, she's a slave to her lust for/attraction to men. Was everything we learned about Viconia a lie? Your mod will make her inner struggle against ingrained Drow cultural norms and values meaningless.

There is at least one conversation she has with Jaheira that has at least a touch of lesbian subtext to it...


You call that proof? Quote a line from Viconia's dialogue where she actually hits on another woman in an explicit fashion, and then I'll believe you. For a person who was exposed to a culture that's so sexually active and promiscuous, a Drow woman like Viconia would have no qualms about making a direct pass at *anyone* she found attractive, if she was indeed bisexual. As it stands, the official Viconia will only romance male characters. Why is that, I wonder?!

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Viconia despises elves/half elves more than she does men. Why on Earth would she hit on a half elven female in the light of everything we know about her? In actual fact, this rewrite is based on what we don't know about her.

There's no concrete proof she's straight either, by which I mean to say, Viconia doesn't say she's straight ever...


Dear God, not this nonsensical reasoning again. By your logic every character we encounter in the game could potentially be bisexual merely because they don't advertise their heterosexuality/homosexuality. This could apply to any number of fictional female characters you happen to find attractive. Is nothing sacred? The truth of the matter is you and the people who support the creation of this mod *want* Viconia to be bisexual. If that's the case, then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Just admit it.

Hell, Viconia could be attracted to animals too for all we know; after all, there's no proof in the games suggesting she isn't a secret admirer of everyday beasts of burden.

The one thing I cannot understand is people's tolerance towards this mod. Feel free to tear my arguments apart. If I write another lengthy post regarding this mod, dare I say it will be in the appropriate forum.

Edited by Longinus, 17 August 2004 - 01:19 PM.

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#18 SimDing0

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 01:46 PM

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.

Is there a particular reason you've completely ignored my line of argument?
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#19 Grim Squeaker

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:32 PM

Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form....

Excuse me, but how is making her bisexual = making her 'sleep with anything' or make this mod a 'pornographic work'?

...By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?

My own personal fantasy? Using her as sex object? Which part of 'I'm not a pervert, I don't get off on this' did you not understand?

Edited by Grim Squeaker, 17 August 2004 - 02:44 PM.

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#20 Zandilar

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Posted 17 August 2004 - 02:50 PM

Heya,

I apologize in advance for disturbing the peace here, but the inception of this mod cannot go unchallenged lest we invite more of its kind into our fold.


This is a bit much, don't you think? "Lest we invite more of its kind into our fold"?

Would you say the same thing about Harry Potter fan fiction that depicts our hero Harry in a relationship with Draco Malfoy? Or maybe Ginny Weasely in a loving and sexual relationship with Hermione Granger? Or would you say the same about other kinds of slash pairings? Dax/Kira? Picard/Riker? Tom/Harry? Xena/Gabrielle? Sam Carter/Janet Fraiser?

I never thought this mod would actually leave the concept stages given how unbelievable it is. Also, I'm not the most active member of this community anymore, so I don't visit this place as often as I once did. What does it matter anyway? It's not as if people aren't free to critique mods whenever they want.


When you look at the original thread, you'll see that three people disagreed strongly (you, Sev, and a guest called Sean)... but everyone else was kind of supportive.

Obsessing over this is not making you look very good...


Whatever gave you that impression? I'm not obsessed: I'm annoyed. There's a difference.


The fact that you brought it up on another forum? The fact that this isn't the first time you've argued against homosexuality/bisexuality in a mod?

The source of my annoyance is not your freedom to write a pornographic work of fiction, but the mindset that inspires someone to rewrite a pre-existing character without giving a thought to their true identity. Why is it so impossible to keep a character in character? Turning Viconia into someone who will sleep with anything isn't believable in any way, shape or form. Write your own character instead of twisting an official one into someone who fits your vision of her. By turning Viconia into something she is not (bisexual) you're simply turning her into nothing more than your own personal fantasy. Women are more than mere sex objects you know?


EXCUSE ME? You certainly have nerve don't you?

Who said this was pornographic? You have no idea. You obviously don't know me, but you've already jumped to ugly conclusions about me.

This mod is not porn. It's not even going near porn...

You claim that Viconia views other women in a more positive light simply because women are the dominent gender in Drow society. The truth of the matter is she sees other women as potential rivals.


No, I didn't say that. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I just said she'd view a female differently to a male and didn't elaborate. Yes, there's a much more subtle power struggle that goes on between female drow... But please remember Viconia isn't a typical drow (she's been away from drow society for more than 70 years - even if she spent a good amount of that time in the underdark!)...

The beauty of Viconia's character was that she was indoctrinated by Drow culture to practically despise men, and yet at the same time, she's a slave to her lust for/attraction to men. Was everything we learned about Viconia a lie? Your mod will make her inner struggle against ingrained Drow cultural norms and values meaningless.


No, my mod will not do that. Because it's more than just treating males as inferior. There's no room for love or trust in drow society, and I think the struggle to accept those two feelings is more important to her story than her sexual desires. And even if this mod was just to expand a friendship with a female, would you object and say it makes that part of her story meaningless? I mean, I'm playing a female here, I don't get to see this struggle against "ingrained Drow cultural norms and values" if I play a female PC...

Her story is not just about sex. Her story would still make sense if she romanced a female.

You call that proof?


No, I call it subtext... And I already said that subtext is subjective. What I see in the lines I quoted, it's obvious that you don't see it.

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, Viconia despises elves/half elves more than she does men. Why on Earth would she hit on a half elven female in the light of everything we know about her? In actual fact, this rewrite is based on what we don't know about her.


Umm... she still romances half-elf males.

Dear God, not this nonsensical reasoning again. By your logic every character we encounter in the game could potentially be bisexual merely because they don't advertise their heterosexuality/homosexuality.


Okay, so maybe it is a bit of a silly argument in the face of Viconia throwing herself at males within the game. But you also have to remember that the writers are constrained by the self-censorship rules of the company they work for. So we will never see (in a Dungeons and Dragons computer game) examples homosexual or bisexual characters. That is the reason why there's no advertising. And because you are of the opinion that unless we see it, it doesn't exist - that means according to you no one in the Forgotten Realms (of computer games) is bisexual or homosexual.

(The print version of the Realms is a different kettle of fish.)

This could apply to any number of fictional female characters you happen to find attractive. Is nothing sacred? The truth of the matter is you and the people who support the creation of this mod *want* Viconia to be bisexual. If that's the case, then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Just admit it.


Nope. Nothing is sacred. See that list of slash pairings I put at the start of this message? That's just a small sample of slash available on the 'net.

I am doing this mod because I want to and because I feel there is something there to work with. If I didn't see it, I wouldn't be doing this mod. I don't need to justify myself, as you said.

The one thing I cannot understand is people's tolerance towards this mod. Feel free to tear my arguments apart. If I write another lengthy post regarding this mod, dare I say it will be in the appropriate forum.


It wouldn't matter if people tollerated it or not. I'm not doing this for everyone else out there, I'm doing it for me. What next? You want people to come out and send hate mail to the dirty lezzy mod writer? :rolleyes: