Laedon does Refinements 1.x

The point is that Robe of Vecna gets extremely powerful only when used by a Sorcerer (with 3 points in Spellcasting Speed Increase).
Otherwise it is merely too easy to get and too early in the game.

Yes, but if many people find it overpowered even without those additions, that should make us ponder.

The best solution would be to modifiy the robe, so that it applies different bonuses for sorcerers and for mages. Sorcerers would get all the bonuses from this robe except the spellcasting speed increase (and perhaps an additional bonus, if needed), while mages would get all the benefits, including the SSI, as usual.

Is this implementable?

Probably yes, I like the idea.
Using IDS targeting and EFF files, we could assign the normal speeding effect to mages (and to all the dual and multi combos, it's just a matter of not forgetting this point!) and something less to sorcs.

After all I don't believe Vecna was a sorc, was he?

Is this implementable?

Probably yes, I like the idea.
Using IDS targeting and EFF files, we could assign the normal speeding effect to mages (and to all the dual and multi combos, it's just a matter of not forgetting this point!) and something less to sorcs.

Definitively so, aVENGER had done the same thig while doing the Improved Short Sword of Backstabbing in the aPack.

We've found the way to solve this issue then. Bigg, can you take care of this (I can add the required values and effects to mages via mail, and we can finally put an end to this exploit). :thumb:

Hm, be careful to leave it as an interesting item even for sorcs.
We don't want to force sorcs to abandon it.
It could give some extra spells when worn by sorcs, for instance.

EDIT: or simply, 2 points of speed instead of 4. They deserve to remain a bit faster, after all.

Edited by Littiz, 21 December 2004 - 08:51 AM.

+4 to everybody and -2 to sorcs then? (that is a simpler way than +4 to all mages, +2 to all sorcs )

+4 to everybody and -2 to sorcs then?

I say +4 to all, 0 to sorcerers. Instead, they'll get an extra spell/level. In addition, Spellcasting Speed increase will be pickable 5 times instead of 3. This sounds balanced to me at least.

+4 to everybody and -2 to sorcs then?

I say +4 to all, 0 to sorcerers. Instead, they'll get an extra spell/level. In addition, Spellcasting Speed increase will be pickable 5 times instead of 3. This sounds balanced to me at least.

Bravo, TG ! That's a good solution, indeed.

I know I suggested the extra spells myself, but I said some, not one for each level!

Anyway, I greatly prefer the -4, -2 solution.
By far the least invasive way, doesn't change the nature of the item and leaves it interesting even for sorcs.
Definitely I wouldn't augment the number of picks of SPPI.

Consider that if you do this, you can have TWO party members with extremely low casting time: a mage with the robe, and a sorc with too many picks.
If we go for the solution proposed by the bigg and myself, only one party member at a time will be able to have extremely low casting times, so the equilibrium will be preserved.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced

I know I suggested the extra spells myself, but I said some, not one for each level! 

Anyway, I greatly prefer the -4, -2 solution.
By far the least invasive way, doesn't change the nature of the item and leaves it interesting even for sorcs.
Definitely I wouldn't augment the number of picks of SPPI.

Consider that if you do this, you can have TWO party members with extremely low casting time: a mage with the robe, and a sorc with too many picks.
If we go for the solution proposed by the bigg and myself, only one party member at a time will be able to have extremely low casting times, so the equilibrium will be preserved.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced

Well personally i think the robes should be turned down even for mages as well and not be made stackable, but i really have a hard time getting this through to people...So if we just made it -2 all around...

Definitely I wouldn't augment the number of picks of SPPI.

Consider that if you do this, you can have TWO party members with extremely low casting time: a mage with the robe, and a sorc with too many picks.
If we go for the solution proposed by the bigg and myself, only one party member at a time will be able to have extremely low casting times, so the equilibrium will be preserved.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced

Lets see the details then. We have two items and one HLA with direct spellcasting speed decreasing effects: The Robe of Vecna, The Amulet of Power and Spellcasting Speed Increase.
Here are the possible combinations of the three, assuming one plays with a mage and a sorcerer in the party (using your suggested values):
1.: the mage has the robe and the amulet (-5), the sorcerer has SSI (-3).
2.: the mage has the robe (-4), the sorcerer has the amulet and SSI (-4).
3.: the mage has the amulet (-1), the sorcerer has the robe and SSI (-5).
4.: the mage has nothing (0), the sorcerer has all the boosts (-6).

And here are the same combinations using my version:
1.: the mage has the robe and the amulet (-5), the sorcerer has SSI (-5).
2.: the mage has the robe (-4), the sorcerer has the amulet and SSI (-6).
3.: the mage has the amulet (-1), the sorcerer has the robe and SSI (-5).
4.: the mage has nothing (0), the sorcerer has all the boosts (-6).

As you can see, there are really small differences, especially when it comes to extreme values. The lowest casting time never surpasses -6 (in the case of the sorc), the total amount of bonuses is 28-32.
Also, in my suggested version the sorcerer would have to sacrifice 2 extra HLA points to get to this level, while in your version they'll get to their "maximum" 2 levels faster.
Another point is the nature of the robe itself. Until now, the Robe of Vecna was loved because of it's powerful boost to spellcasting speed - namely ONE effect, the others were there to make the deal sweeter. If we change this artifact by replacing it's one big bonus to a score of minor extras, it will lose it's potential, I'm sure - inferior AC, save, MR, spell bonuses won't compensate for the loss of the massive spellcasting speed increase. That is why I suggested adding an equally massive bonus to sorcerers as a replacement of the entire effect instead of simply reducing it to a seemingly insignificant value. That way we could keep the two classes balanced, we would keep the robe's appeal to sorcerers as well, and would make sorcerers harder to get to their full capacity at the same time.
Sounds a perfect solution to me...

Being able to lower the casting time by 3 without any items is already a lot. Five is too much.
Should one use two sorcs and a mage, it would be a real crazyness of spells all cast with no casting time, using your solution.

While using mine, to reach -5 or -6 a sorc would still need the Robe, and this would also take it away from a mage.
The rest of magic users in the party would have non-crazy casting time, and *THIS* is balance.
And mind you, the robe wouldn't be less important to a sorc, considering that a mage can use it to reach 0 casting time with spells up to the 4th level, while a sorc could still use it to reach 0 casting time with spells up to the 5th level (sixth with the amulet), which is an non_linear value increment.
It would preserve a sort of relatively equivalent power and appeal, so to speak.

Oh, one last thing: sorcs don't certainly need that crazy amount of bonus spells.

Edited by Littiz, 23 December 2004 - 12:20 AM.

Suggestions.

Split the difference. Let SSI be pickable 4 times. Let the Robe be -4 for mages & -1 for Sorcerers.

Let the robe double first level spells for Sorcerers like the old Ring of Wizardry. There are so few items in the game that add 1st level spells that this would make the robe seem powerful and useful at the same time ... and this would avoid adding more 7th+ level spells per day.

Honestly though the real reason I like the robe is the way it looks in the game! But then again I use one of the tweaks to change its appearance. Hmm. That will be broken too if you change the item file. Could you guys add this tweak as part of your robe fix?

Suggestions.

Split the difference.  Let SSI be pickable 4 times.  Let the Robe be -4 for mages & -1 for Sorcerers.

Let the robe double first level spells for Sorcerers like the old Ring of Wizardry.  There are so few items in the game that add 1st level spells that this would make the robe seem powerful and useful at the same time ... and this would avoid adding more 7th+ level spells per day.

I tried doing something like this with my first tries at IEEP, but IIRC that setting doesn't work in BG2

Honestly though the real reason I like the robe is the way it looks in the game!  But then again I use one of the tweaks to change its appearance.  Hmm.  That will be broken too if you change the item file.  Could you guys add this tweak as part of your robe fix?

We (I ) can always patch the file.

I tried doing something like this with my first tries at IEEP, but IIRC that setting doesn't work in BG2

The doubling of first-level spells? I'm fairly sure the Ring of Wizardry works fine in Tutu.

The doubling of first-level spells?

It seems to work for me too.

to reach -5 or -6 a sorc would still need the Robe, and this would also take it away from a mage.
The rest of magic users in the party would have non-crazy casting time, and *THIS* is balance

If one sorc has the amulet, and the mage has the robe, they will cast spells at -4/-4/-3. Far from weak. And again, these values are gained by the 2 sorcerers 2 levels faster, which *does* count IMO.

Oh, one last thing: sorcs don't certainly need that crazy amount of bonus spells.

I tend to agree here - though if we make the robe double the first level spells would result in twice the amount of instant Magic Missilies...
To be honest, I wonder if this would make the robe more overpowered then an extra spell/levels (up to 5th level for example).

I tend to agree here - though if we make the robe double the first level spells would result in twice the amount of instant Magic Missilies...
To be honest, I wonder if this would make the robe more overpowered then an extra spell/levels (up to 5th level for example).

doubling 1st level spells give sorcs something to do instead of sleeping on the Staff of Magi in easy fights; adding 1 spell from 1st to 5th is redundant against billions of custom - made items. Plus, it's Just Another Breach or Stoneskin at 4th and 5th, so you gain a magic missile, a melf acid arrow and a fire arrow. one wonders what's the point of using Vecna .

Reviewing all the suggestions, I prefer Littiz's solution the most. It tones down the potential for a sorcerer to abuse the Robe of Vecna, amulet of power, spell haste combinations, while not straying from the original concept for the robe. While adding additional spell slot may be great and all, there really isn't any reason to do so if there is another solution that works just as well in the spirit of the original idea.

Go with -4, -2 as Littiz has suggested. You can always append the description slightly to throw some fluff in about the power of the artifact retaining some of Vecna's own sorcerous aura which prevents any sorcerer but himself from gaining the full power of the artifact, but because mages handle magic differently there are no such side effects.

Good, it should be done that way then, following Littiz's suggestions.

Bigg/Littiz, can you take care of the changes on the robe? I have 5 exams for January (and my job at the same time), which makes it hard for me to concentrate on modding these days.

Incidently, I'll try to take a look at the version 2 build that was sent to me within the next couple of days. I haven't looked yet, but is there a list of what changes were made to the various spells, creatures and items? It'd make things easier to examine, especially since I don't have BGII installed at the moment.