The BGT Tutu discussion

Hi all,

Do not have much to say at the moment, but I really do share Ascension64's opinion that this topic should be separated from the BGT-Weidu thread.

So please post your thoughts on the BGT-Tutu dilemma here.

As a starter I'll repeat my two cents:

Well, I'm a mere mortal when it comes to modding and I cannot decide which path would be easier. This is something you legends out there have to decide.
I do know that it is not good to have two rivaling mods that do more or less the same, but the reluctance on this topic in this board indicates that using tutu may not be as simple as it sounds and simply throwing away five days of work by Ascension64 (and years of bug-fixing for BP-BGT) sounds like a dramatic waste for me. On the other hand, being a software-developer myself I know that it is sometimes better to completely replace an old product before fixing it forever...

It would be very interesting to hear the oppinion of some of the modding-legends on this topic.

regards,

Yacomo

I belive I can sum up my current opinion in a single sentance of huge text:

Why not do it a better way?

I belive I can sum up my current opinion in a single sentance of huge text:

Why not do it a better way?

Why dont you, if it realy is better and easier?

Edited by Sara Blackhand, 10 February 2005 - 07:31 AM.

As I said in the other thread:

I personaly enjoy being able to start a new game of bg1, bg2, or tob at any time I want. I severly dislike the hassle of installing/uninstalling various mods in order to switch between games.

As for the "why don't you just set up numerous installs" solution: I have no desire to take up several GB of space for something that isn't nessisary.

And that is why I find BGT to be superior to Tutu.

Edited by Offkorn, 10 February 2005 - 07:37 AM.

Why dont you, if it realy is better and easier?

I'm on half term next week. I'll see if I can get it done then. I'm willing to take a bit of time to do it just to prove my point, even though I think the very concept of a transition is flawed.

As I said in the other thread:

I personaly enjoy being able to start a new game of bg1, bg2, or tob at any time I want. I severly dislike the hassle of installing/uninstalling various mods in order to switch between games.

As for the "why don't you just set up numerous installs" solution: I have no desire to take up several GB of space for something that isn't nessisary.

And that is why I find BGT to be superior to Tutu.

That's nice. However:

I've been talking about allowing Tutu to work the same way BGT does all along. I've been talking about allowing Tutu to work the same way BGT does all along. I've been talking about allowing Tutu to work the same way BGT does all along. How Tutu works now is not relevant.

Edited by SimDing0, 10 February 2005 - 07:41 AM.

I belive I can sum up my current opinion in a single sentance of huge text:

Why not do it a better way?

I think it's a case of Ascension64 not knowing Tutu at all and therefore working on BGT right now. He knows what BGT is doing and therefor it's easier for him to work on WeiDUing BGT at this moment.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of people who have good solid knowledge of how BGT and Tutu handle importing BG into BGII.

I haven't looked at filenames yet, but the areas from BG1 have been renamed in BGT so I assume that there are areas in BGII with the same name as areas on BG1. Maybe you can tell us how Tutu deals with these areas that have the same names? Tutu has the BG1 worldmap in it's conversion so I guess that the BG1 worldmap looks only at BG1 areas and that the BG2 map looks at BG2 areas.

I don't have Tutu at home because I wanted to play the game through from start (Candlekeep) to finish (ToB). I also liked the idea to import my party from BG1 and that the NPC's keep the changes that were made to them. I also like the idea of having just the one worldmap, even if it's huge and a bit crowded, but it still gives you more of an idea where everything is happening.

Another thing I like about BGT is that I will be able to play TotSC after killing Sarevok which for me makes more sense in roleplaying the game. After killing the bad guy they ask you for your help again and that's when you do TotSC. In a way it makes sense to me, but I am sure that not everybody feels the same way.

For people that can mod (I haven't started to look at how to mod the game myself) that want to play TotSC before going to Baldur's Gate I am sure they can make a modification to BGT that will allow them to access the TotSC areas before finishing BG1. When you then meet Belt he can see that you already finished TotSC and start the transition. Maybe an idea for someone to look at?

I think it's a case of Ascension64 not knowing Tutu at all and therefore working on BGT right now.  He knows what BGT is doing and therefor it's easier for him to work on WeiDUing BGT at this moment.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of people who have good solid knowledge of how BGT and Tutu handle importing BG into BGII.

Yeh, but I'm saying it'd save a lot of effort to just take some time to look at the alternatives. If I'd been planning to make a Tutu transition earlier, I'd be taking a look at BGT to see how it'd done it. The same logic applies in reverse. Jumping in making the only thing you can at the time isn't a good way to approach something.

I haven't looked at filenames yet, but the areas from BG1 have been renamed in BGT so I assume that there are areas in BGII with the same name as areas on BG1.  Maybe you can tell us how Tutu deals with these areas that have the same names?  Tutu has the BG1 worldmap in it's conversion so I guess that the BG1 worldmap looks only at BG1 areas and that the BG2 map looks at BG2 areas.

Tutu prefixes the areas with '_', so AR2600 (Candlekeep) becomes _AR2600. The easy way to make a Tutu worldmap including BG1 and BG2 would, I suspect, be to take the BGT worldmap and alter the areas it looks for. That's what I mean when I say combining both mods.

For people that can mod (I haven't started to look at how to mod the game myself) that want to play TotSC before going to Baldur's Gate I am sure they can make a modification to BGT that will allow them to access the TotSC areas before finishing BG1.  When you then meet Belt he can see that you already finished TotSC and start the transition.  Maybe an idea for someone to look at?

But again, you're not looking at this both ways. Yeh, you COULD mess about with BGT so TotSC can be played before the end of BG1. But why bother, when Tutu already does it just fine.

Anyway. I think perhaps I haven't made myself clear enough, in which case, I'm sorry for ranting on under the assumption I was understood:

If you don't play Tutu because you like the continuity of BGT, and the ability to start in BG1 or BG2, that does not matter in this argument. I can and will release a small mod for Tutu which allows you to start in BG1/BG2 and transition exactly the same way BGT does.

To summarise, whatever it is you've decided makes you prefer BGT to Tutu, I can almost assure you that it can be added to Tutu with less effort than WeiDUing all of BGT.

I've been a BGT supporter ever since it first was released, but if I understand correctly what is happening here, it seems like Ascension64 is streamlining BGT into something that resembles Tutu plus some kit changes to the npcs plus the transition. So I tend to agree with SimDing0 that it would be easier to make a mod for TUTU to get 'BGT'. If this is not the case, why?

I do think the transition is a good thing. It's like BG2 -> TOB. I don't understand why the concept is flawed. NPCs other than Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid and Minsc can be made to leave you at the end of BG1 (like in BGT/SBT). You will meet many again in BG2, with the added bonus that they are as you developed them. Those that you don't meet again, well, not all of your friends *have* to mysteriously also go to Amn now do they? This doesn't leave you with silent npcs. SimDing0, can you explain to me why you think the transition is flawed?

I do think the transition is a good thing. It's like BG2 -> TOB. I don't understand why the concept is flawed. NPCs other than Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid and Minsc can be made to leave you at the end of BG1 (like in BGT/SBT). You will meet many again in BG2, with the added bonus that they are as you developed them. Those that you don't meet again, well, not all of your friends *have* to mysteriously also go to Amn now do they? This doesn't leave you with silent npcs. SimDing0, can you explain to me why you think the transition is flawed?

I find it very contrived that everyone suddenly leaves you at the end of BG1. Yes, you can explain it with a bit of inferrence and imagination, but when it comes down to it, it's pretty evidently a plot device. I also don't like the cutscene BGT shows you for the transition: Mae'Var himself coming out and doing a screw-up job of kidnapping you doesn't appeal to me. Finally, does BGT deal with the various continuity issues that arise from BG1 to BG2, like the change in Gorion's mother's role from BG1 to ToB?
Then there's the issue of the interface, which can't really be fixed. I don't like having to access BG1 through the tutorial button. I've stuck with doing this for TutuBGT, but I don't particularly like it, since it feels messy to me.

Edited by SimDing0, 10 February 2005 - 08:53 AM.

I do think the transition is a good thing. It's like BG2 -> TOB.

BG2 -> TOB transition (except changing area) is hard-coded. Many features are added, the attributed dialogues are changed and so on. It's not a simple transtion from one area to another.

I find it very contrived that everyone suddenly leaves you at the end of BG1. Yes, you can explain it with a bit of inferrence and imagination, but when it comes down to it, it's pretty evidently a plot device. I also don't like the cutscene BGT shows you for the transition: Mae'Var himself coming out and doing a screw-up job of kidnapping you doesn't appeal to me. Finally, does BGT deal with the various continuity issues that arise from BG1 to BG2, like the change in Gorion's mother's role from BG1 to ToB?

These are problems within the "source material", so you cannot really solve them. And a lot of people prefer 2 minutes of somewhat inconsistent gameplay than 30 minutes of uninstalling Tutu & installing BG2 mods.
@ the mother: "you weren't ready to know the truth"

Then there's the issue of the interface, which can't really be fixed. I don't like having to access BG1 through the tutorial button. I've stuck with doing this for TutuBGT, but I don't particularly like it, since it feels messy to me.

Set the string "Tutorial" to "Baldur's Gate I", and (if possible) edit some CHUs to put the BG1 section in a more visible position. Alternatively, make it so that Baldur's Gate 1 is in SOA button, while BG2 is in TOB button (after setting strings and changing MOS and whatnot). I don't believe so many people play a TOB only game, and if they are going to do this chances are they'll never install a BG1 conversion

These are problems within the "source material", so you cannot really solve them. And a lot of people prefer 2 minutes of somewhat inconsistent gameplay than 30 minutes of uninstalling Tutu & installing BG2 mods.
@ the mother: "you weren't ready to know the truth"

I prefer 2 separate games that stand well alone to one big game with numerous inconsistencies.

Alternatively, make it so that Baldur's Gate 1 is in SOA button, while BG2 is in TOB button (after setting strings and changing MOS and whatnot). I don't believe so many people play a TOB only game, and if they are going to do this chances are they'll never install a BG1 conversion 

Yeh, this'd be my ideal solution, and if I was doing it myself, that's what I'd do. However, it's substantially more work that way, and I'm willing to bet that some people would say "BGT is better because it still lets me play ToB!!!!!!" Hence, for this 'proof-of-concept', I'm going to try and make sure that BGT retains no advantages whatsoever.

Edited by SimDing0, 10 February 2005 - 09:09 AM.

It sounds like there is a basic philisophical differance between the approach that Tutu and BGT that may or may not be able to be reconciled with future modding.

In "listening" to the discussion it seems that those that perfer tutu see them as 2 distinct games/stories and they just want to play BG1 with the extras (kits, higher resolution) that the BG2 version of the engine provides.

Those of us that like BGT better see it as all one game/story that for marketing/technical/economic reasons had to be split into 2 (3 if you count TOB) games. The purpose of BGT is to do what reality kept Bioware/Black Isle from doing to begin with.

I perfer the continous approach. while I don't agree with the plot of the transition between BGT and BG2 100%, its good enough. Also in my perfect world all the joinable NPC's would be in Candle Keep at the beginning where everybody has 0XP. I can understand how that woudln't be do-able plot wise.

It sounds like there is a basic philisophical differance between the approach that Tutu and BGT that may or may not be able to be reconciled with future modding.

May. May, may, may. IS. I'm doing it. I'm doing it now, okay?!

The purpose of BGT is to do what reality kept Bioware/Black Isle from doing to begin with.

This is an interesting line, however. I don't think Bioware ever intended them to be a continuous game. Indeed, I doubt they ever envisaged anything to do with BG2 while developing BG1. Similarly, development of BG2 evidently showed little regard for maintaining continuity with BG1.

I think I'll throw another 2 cents in (now making 4 cents total). I think the main reason most of us play BGT is because of the number of quests contained in dsotsc and sobh (which was originally written as a BGT mod). And now something called ntotsc is being developed. I think because of area naming and other issues you can't install these mods in Tutu. Maybe I'm wrong, how many mods and quests are there for BG1 in Tutu?

Second, all this talk about being able to start a SoA, or ToB game is a non-starter. If you're playing BP (I assume all those playing BGT also play BP) you reinstall your entire game with every new game you start. For me that has been about 2-3 times a year. In other words the fact that BGT lets you play a ToB only game is irrelevant because you are regularly reinstalling the complete game every few months. I hope none of the modders is wasting their time on making this option available. Or, in other words, there are too many bugs in a BGT game to not reinstall every few months so that you can incorporate new bugfixes and new mods.

But most important for me is maintaining continuity between BG1 and BG2. I know that the games were not originally written that way by Bioware but if the original games were perfect there would be no mods. I am under the impression that, because of the way BGT is set up, it is possible in the future to write mods that span both bg1 and bg2. In a way it already happens with several NPCs being transferred directly from bg1 to bg2 at the transition.

Having said all this I would really like to thank SimDing0 for what he is trying to do in this discussion. Right now the bg modding community is best described as anarchy. Part of this is a result of the copyright laws, no one except Bioware can claim ownership of bg so everyone who writes a mod has to do it for free and once they distribute it they lose control of it. The result has been several different groups (TeamBG-now FW, Pocket Plane, 3 Gibberlings, Chosen of Mystra) all making mods independently of one another. Now most people in these groups are Americans. We have been trained since childhood to value our independence and to hold on to as many rights as possible. If the modding community is already in a state of anarchy (everyone is his own king or queen) it is an uphill battle to get them to form into an organized, more centralized group. What SimDing0 sees and I think is trying to accomplish is that by becoming more of a single group there will be more and better mods available to all of us and he is right. However because we are currently organized as an anarchy there is no method for agreement as to how best to unify the efforts of the different groups. (not even the capitalistic one because all these mods are free) I think people will have to voluntarily, on their own, decide to seriously consider what SimDing0 is proposing. And to do this we (or maybe just me) will need more info on the issues we (or again maybe just me) think are important.

Finally, even though BGT or Tutu might not win out the question of which will be used by most people playing the game (or probably both will) the efforts with each I think can be helpful to the other in identifying which areas have problems, which scripts need to be modified, etc (I don't really know since I haven't written a mod). At least to begin there could be a discussion about standardizing the names of the .are files. Anyway I hope at least some of what I said helps.

Again thanks to everybody in all the different modding communities for making this great game even better. (I actually spend more time in the forums than playing the game.)

PS: Is Irenicus really sticking his finger up his nose?

Edited by russ, 10 February 2005 - 10:50 AM.

I find it very contrived that everyone suddenly leaves you at the end of BG1. Yes, you can explain it with a bit of inferrence and imagination, but when it comes down to it, it's pretty evidently a plot device. I also don't like the cutscene BGT shows you for the transition: Mae'Var himself coming out and doing a screw-up job of kidnapping you doesn't appeal to me.

That's valid critisism vs. the implementation, but what's wrong with the concept? Maybe the transition could be changed to have some story telling how after the final fight most people went their own way and then we would see what's left of the party getting waylayed and next thing you awake in the dungeon. This all could trigger off right after you kill Sarevok, or you would be allowed to roam around some more to finish some things left undone and the transition would be set off by you talking to some npc.

Finally, does BGT deal with the various continuity issues that arise from BG1 to BG2, like the change in Gorion's mother's role from BG1 to ToB?

Thta's true enough, that would have to be adressed, but that could be done at a later stage. Once the transition'd be in place, ironing out the continuity would be next. But think of the opportunities on the other hand. If you let Quayle die in BG1 you'd never get to see Aerie in BG2. Consequences! :w00t:

BG2 -> TOB transition (except changing area) is hard-coded. Many features are added, the attributed dialogues are changed and so on. It's not a simple transtion from one area to another.

Vlad, I meant storywise.

Edited by Eon Blue Apocalypse, 10 February 2005 - 12:23 PM.

I'm not big on sycophancy towards "modding-legends", nor do I think that national cultural traits, real or imagined, have any relevance to the issue.

Like many people I was attracted to BP-BGT becuase it merged BG1 and BG2/TOB into a single large game. There is still plenty of scope for new mods that resolve continuity issues in interesting ways (e.g. what would happen to Jaheira's story if Khalid survived CI?) and I agree that it would be helpful for everyone if a standard platform could emerge, whether BGT or Tutu. BGT is already aimed at making a transition work and mods built for Tutu have already been made BGT-compatible. I would imagine that some pretty convincing technical arguments in favour of Tutu need to be made fast if BGT is going to be abandoned in its favour. Otherwise, this debate may begin to look like one person's sour grapes.

I would imagine that some pretty convincing technical arguments in favour of Tutu need to be made fast if BGT is going to be abandoned in its favour. Otherwise, this debate may begin to look like one person's sour grapes. 

You don't find 600kb versus 600mb to be a compelling technical argument? I think the fact that Ascension64 is (admirably) trying to duplicate much of how Tutu works in WeiDU-BP is a good demonstration of Tutu's technical superiority.

Edited by SimDing0, 10 February 2005 - 01:49 PM.

Tutu's main advantages are that a Tutu transition mod would be far easier and faster to create than a WeiDU version of BGT (though from the sound of it, WeiDU BGT is actually nearly finished), and that the filesize of BGT WeiDU will still be at least a couple of hundred times larger than that of Tutu.

Also, almost any mod designed for BG1 is able to be part of a Tutu game (and this includes many non-WeiDU mods, though there are some notable exceptions), whereas it would have to be specifically adapted to work in a BGT game.

BTW a couple people have mentioned that there are mods such as Secret of Bonehill which were designed for BGT. That's true, but many of these mods also have Tutu versions - yes, that includes SoBH .

Don't forget that there are also plenty of mods designed for Tutu as well... In fact, there are probably more mods for Tutu than there are for BGT (the Grey Clan, BG1NPC Project, Mur'Neth, Indira, and Tutu Tweakpack are just a few examples), but again many of these also have BGT versions.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 10 February 2005 - 02:10 PM.

I'm not big on sycophancy towards "modding-legends", nor do I think that national cultural traits, real or imagined, have any relevance to the issue. 

Most definitely agreed.

The result has been several different groups (TeamBG-now FW, Pocket Plane, 3 Gibberlings, Chosen of Mystra) all making mods independently of one another.

I don't think that centralisation into one large group is a good thing to aim for... I don't see much of a reaon for it. Also, most modders tend to talk a lot to other modders, so there's a lot of cross-communication going on anyhow.

Maybe I'm wrong, how many mods and quests are there for BG1 in Tutu?

Quite a few mods. Some of them have been ported to BGT.

If you're playing BP (I assume all those playing BGT also play BP) you reinstall your entire game with every new game you start.

You have to reinstall each time you want to start a new game?