25 replies to this topic

[toshin]

Am I the only one who thinks that they are very unbalanced?

They get aditional 15% to their damage resistance with their HLAs. With Hardiness on and Easthaven equiped they have 95% resistance. Coupled that with cloak of mirror + rage + 15 magic damage resist from HLAs + inertial barrier. I dont think anything can take bring them down other than elemental attacks but a protection from fire/cold/electric/acid will fix that. They also dont have low hp like the heavily protected mage classes and can easily get 250+ hp.

I mean you can just sit there several turns with several enemies beating on you and not lose half your life.

Also the description said of tireless rage indicates that the barbarian gets tired after rage. I know that this feat comes from 3rd edition but however barbarians in BG2 do not get winded making tireless rage almost useless since you can just keep on using normal rage when it expires and with 95% resists who needs armor class.

[T.G.Maestro]

Good points Toshin, we already discussed them once we released the Barbarian table:

They get aditional 15% to their damage resistance with their HLAs. With Hardiness on and Easthaven equiped they have 95% resistance.

Remember that in order to have that 15% you have to sacrifice 3 powerful offensive abilities... would you sacrifice 3 Whirlwinds for examplpe? But lets say YES.
Hardiness adds 40%, this mans 55% in total.
The Physical Resistance bonuses of the "Defender of Easthaven" flail have been reduced (while its AC bonus has been increased) to 20%.
This results in a final total of 75%. Not 95%, there is a great difference.

Coupled that with cloak of mirror + rage + 15 magic damage resist from HLAs + inertial barrier

For that 15% MDR you once again need to sacrifice 3 useful HLAs. And to be honest, one can increase his MDR to questionable heights even without this 15%. I don't see this as an unbalancing addition - if we are talking about unbalancing elements, well, the Cloak of Mirroring (I never use it) is it.
As a summary, think on a fighter of the same level - he can easily get the same unbelieveable protections from items and Hardiness, those have nothing to do with the HLA changes - if one wants to become nearly invincible, it is pretty much possible with all the powerful items around. And again if you take into consideration, that in order to have those HLA bonuses, you'll need to have 8 picks from the table (1 Hardiness, 1 Resist Magic, 3 Hardened Skin, 3 Resistant Skin) - quite much, and if you take this route, you'll have to forget almost every other HLAs, including the popular offensive ones.

Also the description said of tireless rage indicates that the barbarian gets tired after rage. I know that this feat comes from 3rd edition but however barbarians in BG2 do not get winded making tireless rage almost useless since you can just keep on using normal rage when it expires

This is a good point though - ar you saying one can activate Enrage right after it expires? If so, this will be fixed in the next version.

[Littiz]

Let me tell you a sad story, the story of CassandraLittiz.
CassandraLittiz was granted by the Gods the gifts of Understanding and Foretelling, but they also placed on him a horrible curse: he was never to be believed!
The curse had even a name (a strange one, indeed): TGM.
No one knows why the Gods choosed such a strange name for the Curse.

CassandraLittiz tried for a great part of his life to fight, desperately, against his curse.
But he couldn't win, the Gods wouldn't allow it.
After years of painful struggle
(
:bash:
:bash:
:bash:
:bash:
),
CassandraLittiz decided to stop fighting without a point, and let Time prove him right.
While this was of little practical use, it could provide, at least, some satisfaction for the troubled soul.

[T.G.Maestro]

And so speaketh the curse in a voice of booming thunder:

"AND SO IT SHALT BE, CASSANDRA."

In other words Littiz, Nature always seeks balance in everything. If you received TGM (and his attitude :bash: ) as a curse, it was not accidental at all...

(did I said it already that the Inquisition would have benefited from your... abilities..? )

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 23 September 2004 - 10:49 PM.

[Stone Wolf]

Well, I have to say you two are being quite creative. I was worried your arguments were going to get stale.

Edited by Stone Wolf, 23 September 2004 - 10:33 PM.

[toshin]

You are forgetting the barbarians natural 20% resistance maestro.

I understand there is a big difference between 75 and 95. Some classes can get up to 85% in unmodded game but even then being killed is still a problem.

Even with hardest mods the most damage you take from 95 resist is probably 3.

Oh nevermind this then. I didnt realize defender of easthaven was bumped down to 10% not 20%. I guess it isnt so overpowering now.

Edited by toshin, 23 September 2004 - 10:38 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

You are forgetting the barbarians natural 20% resistance maestro

Oh, my mistake..

Even with hardest mods the most damage you take from 95 resist is probably 3.

Indeed. As I said, this was already discussed, but without a proper solution. While my point (that you need heavy sacrifices if you intend to choose all these HLAs) is still valid, 95% is much, no matter if modded or not.

Any good suggestions?
Mine would be to allow 10 picks for the Hardened Skin HLA AND make the physical bonuses of Hardiness non-stackable with any other physical resistance bonus at the same time. Magic Resistance and Resist Magic already work this way. This would make Hardiness less useful for ALL classes and kits, but would also make it more balanced and realistic at the same time. In other words, the bonuses from Hardened Skin would only be stackable by the classes innate 20%, resulting in a passive 70% if one decides to pick ALL 10 upgrades. Hardiness would still serve as a prerequisite and as an altenate and quick way to get good physical resistances (only resulting in 40% total however).

Opinions?

[toshin]

I think it is fine the way it is in my opinion. I posted this before I actually tested it out on the mod. However now that eashaven is only 10%, barbarians can only get up to 85%.

[T.G.Maestro]

That one would unbalance the game with or without Refinements, we cannot really help that.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Am I the only one who thinks that they are very unbalanced?

I've been considering this as well. I have two thoughts.

First, yes 95+% resistance is way powerful. Just walking around this way all the time might indeed be too much.

However the counterpoint is that even without Refinements it is pretty easy for a Barbarian to do this. Don't forget that Barkskin adds to resistances. With that long lasting spell from a friendly druid, Hardieness, and the Flail it's pretty easy to duplicate this without Refinements.

I would be good either way if this stays or if it goes.

[T.G.Maestro]

First, yes 95+% resistance is way powerful

85% .

Don't forget that Barkskin adds to resistances

Really?
I thought it only affects base AC...

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 24 September 2004 - 04:37 AM.

[Feanor]

Hey ! Who says Barkskin adds to resistance ? It improves only the AC and the saving throws...

[T.G.Maestro]

Hey ! Who says Barkskin adds to resistance ?  It improves only the AC and the saving throws...

Yes, thats what I said too..

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Sorry! Armor of Faith is what I was thinking of! Shorter duration that Barkskin but it adds 5% +5% every 5th level to the 3 resistances.

[T.G.Maestro]

True. But that is only available for Paladins and Fighter-Clerics.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

That's what I get for confusing Barkskin and Armor of Faith.

Though in fairness to me I do have the tweak installed that lets Barbarians dual class in game ... and there is always SK.

I've also been toying with the idea of a multi or dual barbarian for a while now. The big downside to this is that many items like the Amulet of Power are coded as unusuable by Barbarians which affects say Barbarian/Clerics but not Fighter/Clerics or Beserker/Clerics. This renders these non-standard PCs somewhat disadvantaged but not too much so IMO considering what they get. Still it's only been consideration to this point.

[the bigg]

I've also been toying with the idea of a multi or dual barbarian for a while now. The big downside to this is that many items like the Amulet of Power are coded as unusuable by Barbarians which affects say Barbarian/Clerics but not Fighter/Clerics or Beserker/Clerics. This renders these non-standard PCs somewhat disadvantaged but not too much so IMO considering what they get. Still it's only been consideration to this point.

OK, I'll add it to next version of TB#Pack
It feels good that half an hour of coding will satisfy an idea posted in the Refinements forum, but, still
Not sure though ifTGM & Littiz like this idea theft...

[T.G.Maestro]

Go for it Bigg (if you have time for the additional work.. ).

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Heh, I didn't expect a new component, but then again this is an easy change.



Thanks for the thought Bigg!