95 replies to this topic

[Kulyok]

On the side note -- I was replaying Torment for the last week or so and it struck me that Nameless One in fact had commited as bad atrocities and JI in his past... and yet we commiserate with him while JI is compared with Hitler etc etc... I think the reason is the view that these 2 different games force us to take as players.

PC suffers JI crimes 'directly'. It is near impossible to forgive someone who torture YOU 'precious' personally (and your little sister).

Nameless One is your alter ego... and you are put into his shoes and forced to relieve HIS life... therefore you are forced to believe he can change and be redeemed.

That was very close to what I was thinking while I was playing
BG2 for the very first time. In the first act the PC is in turmoil, not really understanding what is going on, somebody just tortured her, and, as it is not enough, the next few hours she sees nothing but people in glass, tortured corpses
and clones, and everybody around would not stop shouting how evil the person is.
It really felt as *too much* evil. So the spirit of contradiction got the best of me and I thought: What's going on ?? Somebody's doing these things, and just everybody I see encourages me to kill him on sight, and I get NO explanation ??
What about listening to his position, not mentioning trying to walk in his shoes ?

At the end of the game I got the feeling the writers wanted PC to explode with blind rage at Irenicus and not to come to the decision that it is elves who issued the judgement: "anger the criminal, make him unable to feel, and let go". Sounds
*extremely* logical.

It was frustrating when PC was standing at the Tree of Life and got no choice.
The mod does offer some reassurance.

BTW, I probably agree with the idea that Jon Irenicus should have been killed outright instead of THAT... Maybe there's a place for an option in the mod: get Irenicus from hell and end his misery ? (I probably wouldn't have done it, though: every sentinent being should have a chance to redeem itself and reconsider, in case of Jon it is suffering in Abyss in both ways: physically and mentally. Can't say evil is suffering, there're too many definitions of evil, but hurting other beings deliberatly and remembering it is indeed suffering to the tormentor as well as the victim)

Edited by Kulyok, 10 September 2004 - 03:38 AM.

[Hendryk]

Seems to me that there are several separate questions that are getting confused here:

1. Can Irenicus, logically, be redeemed?

2. Is it meritorious to make the attempt to redeem him?

3. Did Ellesime act wisely and virtuously in imposing her original sentence upon Joneleth?

I'll not provide my own answers until I've had a chance to play this mod but it might be borne in mind that an answer to one of the above questions does not require a set of "right" answers to the other two. So, for instance, one could maintain that Ellesime was harsh, cruel or stupid without at all implying a "yes" answer to either of the others.

[Schatten]

imo you all view and judge with your own eyes instead you must look and judge as a queen who has responsibility over x elves in a reality you do not live in.
you say killing him outright is better. but is it really? your moral and your punishment are based on your rl surroundings.
ah, well, its fiction and too philosophical.
i cannot say anyhing about it. havent played lr but will if i finish my current game anytime.

[neriana]

Can't say evil is suffering, there're too many definitions of evil, but hurting other beings deliberatly and remembering it is indeed suffering to the tormentor as well as the victim

You've got an extremely high opinion of people there. IMO, if someone is evil enough to do something absolutely horrible to other people calmly and with full knowledge of the outcome for his or her victims to further his or her own power, s/he is incapable of any moral suffering.

With Irenicus, we're not talking about manslaughter, we're talking about genocide. He saw himself as the only important person in existence, so much stronger than anyone else that he deserved to gain ultimate power through their deaths. Then he became offended and hurt because he was caught and punished; his attitude is, "how dare anyone judge me?" He regarded himself as fully justified in stealing another person's soul because he considered himself that much more important than every other being on the face of the planet. Ellesime and the other elves were unwise for thinking such a person should be given a second chance, and the punishment was indeed horrible, but they did it in the hope that Jon would redeem himself. Instead, he turned around and did exactly the same thing again, which is not only evil, but is pretty darn stupid. If anyone deserves to rot for eternity as a pawn in the Blood Wars, it's Irenicus.

Edited by neriana, 11 September 2004 - 01:48 PM.

[dorotea]

Seems to me that there are several separate questions that are getting confused here:

1. Can Irenicus, logically, be redeemed?

2. Is it meritorious to make the attempt to redeem him?

3. Did Ellesime act wisely and virtuously in imposing her original sentence upon Joneleth?

Yes, Hendryk, I think you have got it right. I maintain the position that every player should decide for themselves if they think JI is worth redeeming, and act accordingly, (or in fact decided if they want to roleplay the PC that would think of redemption.)

Btw, everybody seems to forget that the mod has 4 endings, not 1. There are 3 evil ones that give you completely different outcomes.

As for the last question -- once again, I am not enforcing my PoV on anybody. If you disagree with the concept of the mod why downloading it or playing the 'good' path? To feel more outrage?

Hmm. In any case -- thanks for the input.


Just a random observation though: mods filled with atrocious spelling errors (we are not perfect with LR, but at least it was not written/coded on 1 weekend), sexism, violence, terrible writing, outright ignorance of FR lore, and even what I call 'soft porn', cause less outrage of the crowd than a mod that tries to promote forgiveness and non-violence.

I am not complaining -- it is just funny IMHO.

[SimDing0]

Just a random observation though: mods filled with atrocious spelling errors (we are not perfect with LR, but at least it was not written/coded on 1 weekend), sexism, violence, terrible writing, outright ignorance of FR lore, and even what I call 'soft porn', cause less outrage of the crowd than a mod that tries to promote forgiveness and non-violence.

Since this thread has my name all over it, I guess I'm forced to drop in at last.

I don't believe its the concept of forgiveness and pacifism that anyone's objecting to in this mod. At least, not that I've noticed. I don't see why either those, or violence/sexism/"soft porn" should cause any outrage at all. They're all issues which can be dealt with in a mature way.

However, I'm noticing a lot of questionning of the approach to dealing with the themes. That's what many people are objecting to, it seems, rather than the principle of forgiveness.

And yes, don't we all hate terrible writing too.

[SimDing0]

The 'many people' objecting so far seem to be limited to the PP regulars, coming here of request of our unnamed friend. I appreciate his ardor, but I already told him on the other forum that I don't give a fig about his opinion, and consider his tactics rather dirty.

It's lovely when people try to attribute some great conspiracy as the reason behind others disagreeing with them. Maybe you can find a more original excuse though? And that's setting aside the multi-page criticism from someone on Bioware who clearly ISN'T a PPG regular, which you simply disregarded due to some erroneous assumption.

I have not seen much critisizm directed at the writing proper, or the structure of the dialogs. And what I saw was not particularly fair or followed by examples that did not contradict themselves.

Okay, here we go.

For starters, your dialogues are designed in such a way that expecting anyone to figure their way through them without knowing what you want them to say is absolutely crazy. The first Ellesime sequence, for example, took me numerous reloads to attempt to navigate through, and that's AFTER finding the readme devoid of guidance on how to get past it. I actually had to examine the D source in the end. There should not only be one significant "right" path through the dialogues, and it certainly shouldn't be so similar to the other options or utterly obscure that I'm almost wondering what the difference is. Original Redemption suffered the same problem. As much as I'm sure you'd love to think so, I'm not a dumb player, and if I'm having trouble understanding how on earth I'm supposed to navigate through the text, then something fishy's going on.
But I'm sure Jason actually possessed my keyboard and typed that while I was on the toilet.

In any case, I have given you this thread to vent, so vent thou are; and thank you for the free advertisemnt btw -- I would have never gotten the download numbers I am getting without 'dear' jason campain against LR. 

I have indeed directed others to experience the entertainment that I did.

[SimDing0]

And if my post comes across as aggressive, it's because I resent the implication that I can't think for myself.

[neriana]

And if my post comes across as aggressive, it's because I resent the implication that I can't think for myself.

Don't we all.

Compton is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful, Dorotea. Just because people post on pocketplane, that doesn't mean Jason gets magical strings attached to us which he can pull at whim. Do you think fw is invisible unless Jason points it out? It's a modding forum which people interested in mods visit.

And you just accused a few of the most intelligent adults I have ever met of being illiterate children because they (we) don't like something you wrote. I independently downloaded and read the entire mod. You know how to turn your sentences, mostly, but the ends to which you turn them bug the hell out of me. Me means ME. Not Domi, not Jason, not Sim, not Kish, not anyone else you're thinking of. My independent judgement is that I don't like the mod and I don't think it fits with the game at all. That ranting is what you started this thread for, isn't it?

Oh, and just because someone is outspoken about disliking the things you write, that doesn't mean they're stalking you or something. As for "without any provocation", I've seen some things you've written about Jason's work in the past. If I were publicly (and badly) psychoanalyzed by someone because of a mod I wrote, I'd feel plenty provoked myself.

[Kish]

Just a random observation though: mods filled with atrocious spelling errors (we are not perfect with LR, but at least it was not written/coded on 1 weekend), sexism, violence, terrible writing, outright ignorance of FR lore, and even what I call 'soft porn', cause less outrage of the crowd than a mod that tries to promote forgiveness and non-violence.

Tries to promote forgiveness and non-violence? That's only the case if there is one "right" epilogue and three "wrong" epilogues. Weighting all four epilogues equally, the mod would seem to be mostly about vengeance, genocide, and power. Some people object to the idea of redeeming Irenicus, but that's a long way from the only aspect of the mod people object to.

[dorotea]

Well, guys -- I gave you this thread to express yourself and your opinions. Feel free to do so, I will not interfere. This was going to be my last ever IE modding project anyway, and I don't care much for the 'righteous outrage' from the lawful good crowd because I expected it. I had plenty of support from other people, more compassionate and intelligent than judgmental, and I think that a good story should provoke strong emotions -- which this one did.

This is going to be my last post on the matter.

[maidros]

With Irenicus, we're not talking about manslaughter, we're talking about genocide. He saw himself as the only important person in existence, so much stronger than anyone else that he deserved to gain ultimate power through their deaths. Then he became offended and hurt because he was caught and punished; his attitude is, "how dare anyone judge me?" He regarded himself as fully justified in stealing another person's soul because he considered himself that much more important than every other being on the face of the planet. Ellesime and the other elves were unwise for thinking such a person should be given a second chance, and the punishment was indeed horrible, but they did it in the hope that Jon would redeem himself. Instead, he turned around and did exactly the same thing again, which is not only evil, but is pretty darn stupid. If anyone deserves to rot for eternity as a pawn in the Blood Wars, it's Irenicus.

Can anyone without a soul be redeemed? Can you redeem a golem? That is what they turned Joneleth into, in my reading of his punishment. I am not going to get into who imposed the punishment- Ellesime, Rillifane, Seldarine as a whole, etc - but if redeeming Jon was the goal, they did a singularly bad job out of it.

As for whether Jon can be redeemed is a different issue. We do not know what exactly he was before he attempted to steal the power of the Tree of Life. But the fact that he was Ellesime's lover, and in Demin's words 'once noble' leads me ot believe he is not the monster you make him out to be. You can hardly expect him to feel anything when his soul was ripped out and or be noble when he was under the influence of Bhaal's essence. But overall, your idea - Jon cannot be redeemed strkes me as being a little too vehement and forceful.

Please let me know what is the fallacy the authors have committed in his redemption - we shall be grateful to you.
Regards,
Maidros

[qadsjlkahsdf]

I realize this isn't the right place to post this, but I can't find a better place. So, here goes.
Dorotea, I'd just like to say I adore your mod. I love the premise, I love the dialogue, and I love how the redemption of Jon happened.

[dorotea]

You know, post like yours is worth keeping the thread like this one running. Thank you. :love:

[neriana]

You know, post like yours is worth keeping the thread like this one running. Thank you. :love:

The thread topic is "post all negatives here". And yet, the only thing that makes it "worth keeping" is a compliment? Hey, if you think everything you create is perfect and any and all criticism is unfounded, bully for you, and good luck ever improving anything you make, because you're gonna need it. Luck, or a miracle.