55 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

This is very silly logic. BG2 is compatible with every other mod because every other mod is based on it.

Sim has a solid argument here. Agree entirely.

[dorotea]

Looking at what Sir-Kill has produced so far I am 'extremely' optimistic that even Littiz might like it at the end. When I add the un-removable Robes of Irenicus there will be no question as to why the robes don't show up on Jon-boy. And I think the lack of staff animation is minor -- most of the players will have him with a sling or a knife anyway.

[dorotea]

TGM -- real avatar like paperdoll is from the realm of fantasy at this point... unless I manage to involve folks like Lightspeed... It will be an entirely new frame set... and just thinking about it makes me faint.

[Kish]

And I think the lack of staff animation is minor -- most of the players will have him with a sling or a knife anyway.

In light of the existence of the Staff of the Magi, I'm puzzled that you'd think most players will not have Irenicus using a staff. No sling or dagger can compare to that.

[dorotea]

Hi Kish -- I accept your point about staff of the Magi, still I doubt that I will be able to come with a set of custom frames for Irenicus paperdoll holding a weapon...

And I prefer the original animation to the generic elven sorcerer -- because I think this mod plot and 'feel' requires the original animation.

[dorotea]

Here is my tonight's final attempt using Sir-Kill's images.

Opinions? Suggestions?

[Littiz]

The paperdoll looks fine (though I figure it doesn't display items still...)
But, erm, NO weapon animations?!
Very few players will see it as a minor issue, trust me.

It's a pity to see this mod fail in the technical aspects, especially since it's not necessary at all.
If it was my mod, I'd drop the custom animation idea for sure.
No other NPC has it (they just got a portrait), so it's not really needed, and it doesn't work.
But it's your mod, so I won't insist..

P.S.: if you really want him "muscled", what about a Half-Orc animation?
I've never actually seen it in game, but one never knows...

Edited by Littiz, 29 September 2004 - 10:09 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Here is my tonight's final attempt using Sir-Kill's images.

Opinions? Suggestions?

Looks good, and acceptable for me.
The mask still needs heavy "baldurization" though!

And I prefer the original animation to the generic elven sorcerer -- because I think this mod plot and 'feel' requires the original animation.

Yes, I think it is fundamental for this character to have his original animation (or at least something close to it).

Very few players will see it as a minor issue, trust me.

It's a pity to see this mod fail in the technical aspects, especially since it's not necessary at all.
If it was my mod, I'd drop the custom animation idea for sure.

No other NPC has it (they just got a portrait), so it's not really needed

Hey Littiz, you forget to add that none of those NPCs you mention have a unique avatar. Edqin looks exatly as his paperdoll image, and the same goes for Jaheira, Minsc, Aerie, etc. Irenicus is different, he has a very special look in the game, and if something is unfitting for him, its the classical elven-mage paperdoll.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 29 September 2004 - 10:41 PM.

[SimDing0]

What about Sarevok? Underneath it all, he's a human fighter avatar.

[T.G.Maestro]

But while the standard fighter avater looks still fitting for him, an elven avatar would be definitely ages away from Irenicus' current look. And changing that would kill the mod IMO.

[Laufey]

But while the standard fighter avater looks still fitting for him, an elven avatar would be definitely ages away from Irenicus' current look. And changing that would kill the mod IMO.

I have to agree, Irenicus' look is so unique that I really don't think a standard elven mage look would be right for him at all. The current look may not be perfect, but of the two alternatives I think it is the better one.

[Awake]

i like the special one. the only problem i see is that the head appears too small, as i posted in the sol ek sa forum.

[Littiz]

TGM, you seem to have missed my original suggestion.
He his recreated "from scratch", so not having the "enhanced" muscles would make sense.

And I agree with SimDingo about Sarevok... that one was a correct implementation, that allowed to properly *integrate* him in the party.

I add that if a mod doesn't work out technically (and lack of weapon animation is a MAJOR flaw), it's doomed to the "B" category: you can maybe try it once, but it cannot achieve the "permanently installed" status (as Virtue or UB for instance).

Edited by Littiz, 30 September 2004 - 12:12 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

TGM, you seem to have missed my original suggestion

He was a normal elf, once, he might be revived with a normal elven body (but with his own face, probably)

No, I haven't. But AFAIK you get his "evil" form at the start (the one you ahve seen throughout SoA), as far as the plot goes.

And I agree with SimDingo about Sarevok... that one was a correct implementation, that allowed to properly *integrate* him in the party.

Heh, lets just take a look at those 2 characters again, as I pointed out a few posts before:
Sarevok is/was a fighter. The only difference between his original avatar and the new (classical fighter) avatar is the special armor and helmet. This was easily translated into ToB since the 2 variations looked almost the same. And about the armor, they made it so that Sarevok "lost it". The only noteable difference and flaw in his new playable character was his hair - they forgot to make it the same color as his skin (as seen on Balthzar). Thats it, we can say he became a 95% version, one that resembles almost entirely his original form.
Irenicus is/was an elven mage. But not a "normal" mage: he had much tougher body, completely different musculature, different face (without hair?), entirely different clothes, unique poses, and most of all - no weapons or visible items. Now, lets see what can be done from this list by using ANY of the available paperdolls:
body - totally wrong, none of them resembles at least slightly to it;
musculature - as above, cannot be implemented by any of the available models;
face - as above;
clothes - one of the worst points, a total failure, no matter what you choose;
weapons - the only point where the mod would have benfitted from a normal p.doll.
So, lets see the results: assigning a normal paperdoll to him (by keeping his unique avatar) would make weapons visible, but on the other hand it would ruin his body, his original look, his face, his movements - everything. And would completely ruin the feeling that you actually playing with him, not another elven spellcaster. Using Dorotea's version (with the re-editted bams, of course) we get a 70-75% conversion. By adding an elven avatar, this would be around 30-40%.

As a summary, in the case of Irenicus the correct (above 90%) implementation is much harder than in the case of Sarevok, if not impossible.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 30 September 2004 - 03:02 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

I guess I am one of the few players who really don't care all that much about a missing weapon animation. I vote for Irenicus looking the way he does now

Yep.

And yes, I often change Sarevok's special avatar back to him with Shadowkeeper because I prefer it to the generic male Fighter

And -just for the record- don't forget to add that you have the game crash to desktop every time you add a 2-handed weapon in his hands...

[Lord E]

*frowns* Actually it didn't crash. Odd.

[Littiz]

TGM, again: those muscles cannot be his natural muscles. He was born as an elf after all. He's too tall, too strong, too everything. There's ground for a lot of speculation here, lot of possibilities to justify a change.
But I see that we just have different expectations from a mod.
You are happy with the "impressive looks".
For my part, if I download a NPC mod (and at the end of the story, this *is* a NPC mod), and then I see that:

• I cannot assign items to his paperdoll, while I can do it for other party members
  
• I cannot use weapons (and staves!) correctly
  
• Spoken lines are not in line with the written ones, and seem to be chosen randomly (!)

...I start to think that said NPC fails in every field of competence of a NPC, if you get my meaning...

IMHO technical issues of such importance should get primary attention, and a mod should be built around them.
Well, at least this happens for the mods I'm working on, and many others that I happen to like.

Ok, I'm off now.
Forgive my intrusion, but it's real pity, I was really looking forward to this one

[T.G.Maestro]

But I see that we just have different expectations from a mod.
You are happy with the "impressive looks".

Hmm, you might have a point here, but its not like I'm all for "impressive looks". But if I have to choose from two "wrongs", I'll definitely choose the lesser.

those muscles cannot be his natural muscles. He was born as an elf after all. He's too tall, too strong, too everything.

Yes, you are correct here - but again, thats his character. We can calculate, doubt, or believe in his abilities, thats the way he was designed, and for this simple reason we must follow this path in his ToB NPC implementation. And remember, he is a very "special" elf - a living legend, to say the least.

I cannot assign items to his paperdoll, while I can do it for other party members

True, this is a flaw we'll have to bear. The other alternative -where his current avatar/paperdoll would be replaced by a normal elven animation- would ruin much-much more, trust me.

I cannot use weapons (and staves!) correctly

This is a good question. I was wondering wether Irenicus suffers from the same bug that was experienced in the case of Sarevok - where his original avatar would CTD if quipped with a two-handed weapon...
This should definitely be tested.

Spoken lines are not in line with the written ones, and seem to be chosen randomly (!)

Now, this sounds a major bug here, and I'm sure Dorotea will have to take care of it for the next release.

IMHO technical issues of such importance should get primary attention, and a mod should be built around them.

You know, the problem lies in the starting material. Making Irenicus a joinable NPC is not like adding another (elven) mage. Irenicus has a "tradition" in SoA, and one should follow these unwritten rules. Of course, this means less freedom when it comes to technical problems - for example you cannot assign a normal avatar/paperdoll for him, even if it would solve half of the technical problems.
This project is built on a great idea, but I think it just cannot be implemented without one of these flaws.

[dorotea]

Hi folks -- I am sorry for being late to jump into the discussion -- I have been rather very sick for the last few days and today my cold has gotten even worse. Hmm.

No excuses though. I posted my impression of the last change I want to do with the paperdoll in the Sol Ek Sa forum -- hopefully this can be worked out.

As far as I see the only real problem would be the staves animation, as sling or dagger is not that visible... Hmm. Maybe there is a way to make Jon a special kit that forbids him use of staves? Goes way to balance him btw...

As for spoken lines not matching with the written ones -- goodness! I wish I could get DW do voice clips for the mod, but alas it is as impossible as new frames for JI animation.

Unless somebody here vounteers to record lines and has a natural british accented voice of a professional actor , of the right timbre too!

Personally I prefer a recycled line of text to the mute replica -- it is a matter of taste.

And Littiz -- I do appreciate your desire to see a mod seamlessly fitting into the game... and I will continue making small improvements until we are as close as possible. Some help ahem ahem would be appreciated... I am after all a fully employed cat husband and teenage son - owner working on this project purely on my pesonal inspiration (and I am trying to write fanfictions at the same time and help half a dozen friends to edit theirs...)

Sorry, had to whine a little.