38 replies to this topic

[Sir Kalthorine]

I sympathise (and agree) completely with everything that Zyraen and Postosuchus have written.

While a part of me can understand the sense of "parental pride" that must come from having "your" NPC born into the BG2 gameplaying society, it does seem to be to be a criminal abuse of mod-writing power to so flagrantly undermine every NPC in the game other than your own.

With great power comes great responsibility... Spidey's Uncle was dead right on that one!

[Hendryk]

You forgot "manages to intimidate Korgan"

that's worse than the others, in my opinion.

Heheh. You beat me to that one. It's certainly right up there with reducing Jaheira to awed acquiescence and out-talking Edwin or Jan.

Couple things though. First, nobody's going to write an NPC if the author isn't interested/amused by that NPC. So some bias in favor of an NPC is almost inevitable because the author is going to try to make the NPC interesting to others also. The most an author can do is be aware of this syndrome and at least consider the objections of others regarding the most serious failures to self-edit. But you have to accept, too, that there are so many others with as many particular points-of-view that no one, not even the author, is ever going to be perfectly satisfied with the result.

Second, some NPCs will normally out-shine most, or even all, the official ones within the area of their particular expertise. For instance, I once wrote some dialogues for a character, now, alas, defunct, whose backstory included a long tour of duty in the New Lands. Because of this experience, no one, not even Viconia, was thought better able to discuss the effects of culture clashes in the game world, though the character in question was otherwise neither a great intellect nor outstandingly empathetic. The point is that general injunctions to the effect that "you can't do this" or "never do that" can and should be broken in individual mod NPC cases for specific reasons. Even if an author produces an ubermensch NPC; one who is in fact superior to all the official ones in all ways and whose actions and banters confirm this superiority, if the rationale is appropriate and the official NPC characterizations are respected, then really the only valid criticism is that such a character is not to your taste.

So, while all these lists show a great deal of thought and concern and make their quite valid points, they shouldn't, I wouldn't say, be regarded as a check list against which to grade a mod or all mods. Authors write NPCs for fun. If the scope for permissible fun is drawn too tightly, then there will never again be a new character for the game and that would be a greater pity than infraction of all these rules together.

[jcompton]

Second, some NPCs will normally out-shine most, or even all, the official ones within the area of their particular expertise.  For instance, I once wrote some dialogues for a character, now, alas, defunct, whose backstory included a long tour of duty in the New Lands.  Because of this experience, no one, not even Viconia, was thought better able to discuss the effects of culture clashes in the game world, though the character in question was otherwise neither a great intellect nor outstandingly empathetic.  The point is that general injunctions to the effect that "you can't do this" or "never do that" can and should be broken in individual mod NPC cases for specific reasons.  Even if an author produces an ubermensch NPC; one who is in fact superior to all the official ones in all ways and whose actions and banters confirm this superiority, if the rationale is appropriate and the official NPC characterizations are respected, then really the only valid criticism is that such a character is not to your taste. 

I'd submit that characters have been designed with that rationale in mind and it has proven largely unsatisfying to a large segment of the player base. Saying "My character is more awesomer because he had this really awesome background and was born into a family of awesomeness and trained for awesomeness at an early age and has a special Awesome Master kit which gives him the great abilities of the ancient Awesomes" means that you have created a character with a "rationale" that explains why they're so awesome, but doesn't at all explain how such a character can really be taken seriously in a game alongside rather less awesome peers.

You can explain away anything you like, but after a while, credibility is stretched pretty thin for a lot of players. It's not necessarily enough to simply explain why somebody is the Second Coming--some players are rather puzzled why such a thing belongs in the game in the first place.

[Hendryk]

I'd submit that characters have been designed with that rationale in mind and it has proven largely unsatisfying to a large segment of the player base. Saying "My character is more awesomer because he had this really awesome background and was born into a family of awesomeness and trained for awesomeness at an early age and has a special Awesome Master kit which gives him the great abilities of the ancient Awesomes" means that you have created a character with a "rationale" that explains why they're so awesome, but doesn't at all explain how such a character can really be taken seriously in a game alongside rather less awesome peers.

You can explain away anything you like, but after a while, credibility is stretched pretty thin for a lot of players. It's not necessarily enough to simply explain why somebody is the Second Coming--some players are rather puzzled why such a thing belongs in the game in the first place.

No argument. I wouldn't bother downloading a "superhero" mod myself. In fact, my personal list of modding do's and don't's is quite extensive and almost all of it appears here in one form or another. I was merely suggesting that no consensus of player opinion, no matter how well thought-out or grounded in past experience, should be construed as an a priori straightjacket for any conceivable mod. If someone tries such a thing and, in popular estimation, fails, that still shouldn't absolutely prohibit the next person from trying.

Put prospective modders on notice as to what has hitherto been found most generally acceptible? Certainly. Establish a pretense that Moses bore a recently rediscovered third tablet from Mt Sinai bearing these injunctions? No.

[Sir Kalthorine]

No argument.  I wouldn't bother downloading a "superhero" mod myself.  In fact, my personal list of modding do's and don't's is quite extensive and almost all of it appears here in one form or another.  I was merely suggesting that no consensus of player opinion, no matter how well thought-out or grounded in past experience, should be construed as an a priori straightjacket for any conceivable mod.  If someone tries such a thing and, in popular estimation, fails, that still shouldn't absolutely prohibit the next person from trying. 

Put prospective modders on notice as to what has hitherto been found most generally acceptible?  Certainly.  Establish a pretense that Moses bore a recently rediscovered third tablet from Mt Sinai bearing these injunctions?  No.

Nicely put, Hendryk. I remember a time in the infancy of BG2 modding when any prospective new NPC was treated with cries of "cheese" and "sacrilege" simply because some short-sighted players saw the Bioware NPCs as canon and did not want anyone messing with the status quo. I am happy to say that the quality of such NPCs as Kelsey, Tashia and the like soon dispelled that particular notion in the minds of all except a few die-hard purists.

There is nothing wrong, in my mind, in "pushing the envelope" as far as what is considered "acceptable" in NPC (or other) modding. However, I do agree 100% with the observation that uber-powered NPCs are pretty much guaranteed game spoilers. Attempting something non-standard in a mod is no crime... however, not taking sufficient care to ensure the changes are sufficiently balanced and in character with the "spirit" of the game most certainly is.

[Deathsangel]

Though it is pretty obvious, I would also like to state (I might have overlooked it, but I couldn't see it) that the background of the character should have a solid base. Even if it isn't an uber-NPC I would still like the background to be believable and in consistence with the Fearun ecology. For this reason I do not much like certain NPC's (which I will not mention here, as I don't want to hurt anyone). With the rest that is said here I mostly agree, not in total, but hé we are all different people. I also try to keep these things in mind when I mod, but I reckon that most modders do, as they like to see their NPC to be liked and fun. Okay that were my 2 cents.

[Hendryk]

Another important thing for me is that the character was well-grounded in Faerunian reality. I prefer it over dropped-in characters and characters with hard/impossible-to-believe storyline or origins.

An excellent point and one I largely share. However, one does have to admit that "Faerunian reality" does include an awful lot of critters that weren't born/hatched/cloned/spawned/sprouted on Faerun. Where this sort of "dropping in" is just an excuse for an Undead/half-dragon/half-beholder/paladin/sorcerer/who-turns-lycanthrope-under-the-full-moon NPC, well...yeah. What you said.

Otoh, an alien NPC who isn't overpowered and who does have a plausible reason for being on Faerun and cooperating with the PC isn't automatically a poor choice just because he/she/it is of non-standard race. It depends on how thoroughly the background is worked in, how consistently it's applied and on how interesting or amusing it is. In other words, it all depends on the imagination and skill of the writer - and that's the case, too, for the standard cleric-next-door.

Edited by Hendryk, 04 April 2005 - 06:30 PM.

[Caedwyr]

Another important thing for me is that the character was well-grounded in Faerunian reality. I prefer it over dropped-in characters and characters with hard/impossible-to-believe storyline or origins.

An excellent point and one I largely share. However, one does have to admit that "Faerunian reality" does include an awful lot of critters that weren't born/hatched/cloned/spawned/sprouted on Faerun. Where this sort of "dropping in" is just an excuse for an Undead/half-dragon/half-beholder/paladin/sorcerer/who-turns-lycanthrope-under-the-full-moon NPC, well...yeah. What you said.

Otoh, an alien NPC who isn't overpowered and who does have a plausible reason for being on Faerun and cooperating with the PC isn't automatically a poor choice just because he/she/it is of non-standard race. It depends on how thoroughly the background is worked in, how consistently it's applied and on how interesting or amusing it is. In other words, it all depends on the imagination and skill of the writer - and that's the case, too, for the standard cleric-next-door.

Freaks like to band together after all. It shouldn't suprise anyone to have the PC collect a bunch of other individuals who are just as weird as he/she is.

[Lord Ernie]

I know what you mean. Many people seem to believe that originality of a character comes from strange backgrounds, racial mixes, or broken stereotypes (a good drow, anyone?). A good background story, well-written dialogues, and a believable premise can give an NPC that much more than making him a half-dragon/quarter-demon/quarter-drow or something.

On the other hand, the number of NPC mods out there isn't unlimited, and many of them feature strange characters. As long as they are well-written and interesting enough (there are those, you know), I can live with their far too complicated ancestries or weird backgrounds.

[Togashi Renshi]

I think it is - or close enough that it does not matter 

Naah, I just saw a Romance Mod that gets you lovin' a Kobold NPC, I kid you not. I'm not positive, but I think the Kobold was blue, too...and if that isn't unlimited, I don't know what is.

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 05 April 2005 - 03:52 PM.

[Hendryk]

I think it is - or close enough that it does not matter 

Naah, I just saw a Romance Mod that gets you lovin' a Kobold NPC, I kid you not. I'm not positive, but I think the Kobold was blue, too...and if that isn't unlimited, I don't know what is.

Drat! I've got a female PC that I've been saving up to romance a kobold. But she wants a purple kobold monk who is psionic. Still too limited for me.

[Togashi Renshi]

Hmmm....well, you could always ShadowKeeper him to be purple and be a monk. I tried giving psionics (actually, just illithid abilities) to my PC, but it always causes the game to crash, so I dunno how that would work on a Kobold mod.

"Such a pint-sized scaly bigheaded (literally) lover thou are, Kurt!"

(I have no idea where the Kurt came from, to be honest. My mind is strange like that...)

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 05 April 2005 - 05:10 PM.

[Sir Kalthorine]

I just saw a Romance Mod that gets you lovin' a Kobold NPC, I kid you not. I'm not positive, but I think the Kobold was blue, too...

Was the little fella' blue before it got "romanced" (nudge, nudge... ), or as a result of?...

...er... I think I'll go get some therapy now

Edited by Sir Kalthorine, 07 April 2005 - 02:51 PM.

[Togashi Renshi]

Hmm...good job Sir K. Now my mind has a few mushroom clouds exploding inside of it.

In any case, methinks he's different because he's blue. I think I forgot to mention that he's a GOOD kobold. (And that just got me thinking of the song "OH, I just gotta be meee!")

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 08 April 2005 - 03:46 PM.

[Sir Kalthorine]

Hmm...good job Sir K. Now my mind has a few mushroom clouds exploding inside of it. 

In any case, methinks he's different because he's blue. I think I forgot to mention that he's a GOOD kobold. (And that just got me thinking of the song "OH, I just gotta be meee!")

Hehe...

<Sir K crosses off "love affair with undersized humanoid lizards" from his list of desirable mod content>

[Togashi Renshi]

I just remembered another thing about it: he only romances humans, elves, or half-elves. To quote a spastic friend of mine, "OH JEEZ!"
NOTE: This info may or may not be correct. I trust my memory enough to trust it, but some insidious bug may be up in there twisting levers and knobs so I'll do insane things, so beware.