38 replies to this topic

[Torn]

This poll is the result of a slight disagreement myself and DA had in the workroom. When I suggested working with the Drow to take over Suldanessallar, he pointed out that this would create consistency issues with the ToB introductory cinematic, which mentions that you have been living with Ellesime and them.

Not able to come to a conclusion amongst ourselves, we throw this to the opinion of those waiting for the MftW. What are your thoughts on this?

[SConrad]

If it's such a bother, just hack and slash the introduction movie.

[Deathsangel]

*spoiler*











The conflict arises as this is my idea:

* You have 'secured' the drow as allies
* They whipe the surface elves out with your help
* They tell of the lantern, as John is there and they want to kill all of the surface elves
* You go the normal route as to get the lantern
* You bring it back to the Drow.
* They betray you as by attacking you, as they don't want a new evil god.
* You slay them, pick up the lantern once again and go for the Suldanessallar as Irenicus is there.
* The surface elves have enough trouble as it is (will leave Elhan out of it) and do not mind you.
* You go about as normal to take down Irenicus, thus the elves praising you for saving their city (not knowing of the onslaught of before (think hard on it, or don't if you wish not a spoiler) as none escaped). Their fault, but any help against Irenicus is welcome. Change some dialog options here

Whereas Torn's is to not let the drow betray you and destroy Suldanessallar in total

Edited by Deathsangel, 12 April 2005 - 09:56 AM.

[Surtr]

I guess, I'm torn between those two since...

1. Its all known that Drows have the behavour to betray really everyone and everything (expect Lolth) to getting more power for themselves and to get the favour of Lolth. Lolth would *also* pretty much enjoy to see how her drow worshippers honor her dreaded name with the death of one of the Bhaalbreed (and the most mightiest one, on top of that)!

2. But it would be also interesting and understandable, to get allied with the drow and slaugher the survice elves in Suldanessallar, since nearly all drow HATE the survice dwelling elves MORE THAN ANYTHING! Thats an big change to get revange for all those painful memories that Lolth has suffered because of the chief god of the survice elves banned herself into the Abyss (and even tranformed her into an monstrous spider-like being)... :closedeyes:
That would cause an little beauty error in the ToB movie, yes.. but after seeing it the X.te time *I*, personally simple cancel it and start to play.

Like Id said, I'm stuck between the two because both are interesting and reasonably!

Edited by Surtr, 12 April 2005 - 10:46 AM.

[NiGHTMARE]

Easy solution: create a new Drow character who also happens to be called Ellesime .

[Hendryk]

I'd think that Lolth would be calling the shots for the drow here and her first concern would be to make certain that Irenicus didn't become an elven god. An Evil male mage elven god might have a most unfortunate effect on her "mere male" followers by giving them an alternative.

So with stopping Jon as the drow's main priority, I can't see them turning on the PC while Irenicus lives and is still casting his ritual. No matter how Evil you are, you don't waste your strength by turning your forces on each other until after the main threat has been dealt with. Unless you are also truly stupid, which Lolth is not.

For that matter, I can't see drow getting quite the cooperation from the avatar of Rillifane that the PC would. If anything, his forest spirits would probably start killing drow right along with Irenicus' little playmates. That is probably just as well for metagame reasons since the drow would certainly destroy all the mortal bodies around the tree while everyone's spirits are duking it out in helll. Thus, the game could never get finished unless the surface elves survive to tend to the party's corpses.

So yes. The drow would definitely betray the party but not until after Irenicus has died at the ToL. But by that time, in order to reach the Tree, the party has already loosed the forest spirits and all the drow are dead or fled. So they never get the chance to kill the party at the point in their scheme at which they logically should do so.

Edited by Hendryk, 12 April 2005 - 11:08 AM.

[Deva]

I'm with Deathsangel on this. His suggestion seems to make sense.

[Hendryk]

Um...how does it make sense that the drow attack you because "they don't want a new evil god"? Killing the PC will just bring Bhaal that much closer to restoration as Lolth, at least, might foresee. And what is Irenicus in the process of becoming if not a "new evil god"? And Irenicus is right now, not at some indefinite time in the future as is the best (worst?) case for the PC.

[Deathsangel]

I reckon with the Drow being cocky. That this mere Bhaalspawn is easily removed, if so they have lantern and go after John.

@Hendryk
I also wonder if the avatar of Rillifane would help an Evil PC allied with Drow. He will sense this, thus slaying PC or geas him to kill Irenicus... That is beside the question if the gods even know how Bhaal wishes to return. At the of SoA the story is not developed so far as that the mortals know what is going on, perhaps not even Lolth, as Bhaal won't spill his secrets so easily.

Besides, even if Rillifane is with you on this. The surface elves will have seen you entering with Drow. Ellesime won't help you, I reckon, thus creating once again inconsistency

@NiGHTMARE
Ellesime still remains a surface elf in the movie. It remains inconsitent

@SConrad
I don't like hacking the movie. Frankly I do not know how. I believe people would need full install to hack it, right? Even moreso I think people will miss it, even if they at times skip it. Though it is the most viable option as of yet IMO, if you tell me how.

@Hishi
Thanks

Edited by Deathsangel, 12 April 2005 - 12:28 PM.

[Hendryk]

I reckon with the Drow being cocky. That this mere Bhaalspawn is easily removed, if so they have lantern and go after John.

You seem to be assuming here that the drow are acting on their own initiative rather than on instructions from Lolth. In that case, why would they cooperate with the PC even to that point? To get the Rhynn lanthorn? The drow might know it exists from Irenicus but they certainly wouldn't know that the Lanthorn was the key to entering Sul. Even ordinary surface elves probably didn't know that, the Lanthorn being a state secret and all. And Irenicus certainly wouldn't have told them that it was the secret key to defeat his own plan!

I also wonder if the avatar of Rillifane would help an Evil PC allied with Drow. He will sense this,

I doubt he'd be real happy about the situation. But he, personally, can't do anything - he says so himself. And Irenicus, right as he speaks, is about to kill the Tree and become a god. The avatar really doesn't have any other options.

That is beside the question if the gods even know how Bhaal wishes to return. At the of SoA the story is not developed so far as that the mortals know what is going on, perhaps not even Lolth, as Bhaal won't spill his secrets so easily.

She wouldn't know every detail certainly but that in itself is a detail. Certainly, her servants would have learned from the PC that Irenicus had stolen the PC's divine soul, so the PC wouldn't be any kind of threat to Lolth at the moment anyway. Later perhaps, she'll deal with the PC. But, as with Rillifane, Irenicus is happening right this instant. Lolth wouldn't be in any better shape to intervene personally than Rillifane; the Tree is his focus of power, not hers. So either she'd have ordered the PC killed back in Ust Natha or she'd want the PC to "help" finish Irenicus. After all, she'd certainly remember a great deal about Rillifane and would recognize that the PC was a better bet for dealing with him than *her* servants would be.

The surface elves will have seen you entering with Drow. Ellesime won't help you, I reckon, thus creating once again inconsistency

I don't reckon she'd give you a hero's welcome certainly. But she probably wouldn't kill you either until she's at least spoken with you. After hell. The drow wouldn't wait. They'd kill you while you were in hell, no question about it. After talking with you, what Ellesime would do would depend on what was said. Certainly, if you were fool enough to tell her that you hate surface elves and voluntarily allied with the drow to destroy Sul, she'd have you executed. But if the PC turns the blame around towards her - saying it's Ellesime's fault that Irenicus lived to steal his/her soul and that the drow forced the PC to aid them in their final assault - she might not believe you fully but she probably wouldn't execute you either. Hell, she didn't even execute Joneleth or Bodhi after their first attempt to destroy the Tree. So she could, without inconsistency, simply kick the party out of town and direct them to the grove to ensure that they go quietly.

Edited by Hendryk, 12 April 2005 - 01:49 PM.

[SConrad]

@SConrad
I don't like hacking the movie. Frankly I do not know how. I believe people would need full install to hack it, right? Even moreso I think people will miss it, even if they at times skip it. Though it is the most viable option as of yet IMO, if you tell me how.

It's not entirely impossible. Hackin' and slashin' the movie is one thing you can achieve by various programs. I might be able to help, if I get the time and would like some more experience with movie-editing.

Then, you can just replace the old one with the new version with the method I developed and wrote a tutorial on somewhere.

It's possible, yes.

[Deathsangel]

@Hendryk

Okay, I'm convinced concerning the Lolth and Rillifane issues.

However, both plans (Mine and Torn's) does assume the Drow know of the Rhynn lantorn. I also reckon, that the surface elves know or else they can not enter their own city.

[Hendryk]

If Lolth was the inspiration for the drow switching 'surfacer' allies from Irenicus to the PC, there's no problem about the drow knowing about the lanthorn. Lolth once was of the Seldarine, IIRC, and so could remember the lanthron from its creation. She might even have helped create it, if there is no canon origin for the device to the contrary. And at a minimum, Lolth hates the Seldarine more than she hates anyone else so she would know a good bit about the lanthorn just from "military intelligence" as it were.

As for ordinary elves *not* knowing about the Lanthorn, remember that Suldanesselar was not normally sealed as it is when the PC gets there. That was something extraordinary that Irenicus had done to make sure his tree-draining wouldn't be interrupted. In normal times, ordinary elves didn't need the lanthorn to enter their city. They just walked there. Elhan, otoh, was the senior commanding general of Suldnanesselar and, as he said himself, had been instructed in its use by sages. And Joneleth had been consort to the Queen and was the most powerful wizard in the place also, so it makes sense that he would know all about it. Ordinary elves, though, probably wouldn't know more than the name that referred to some very old magic lamp that had normally hung in their temple.

Edited by Hendryk, 13 April 2005 - 03:16 AM.

[fallen_demon]

I remember we had plans for this in the (now innactive) Dark Elves mod. I can send you the relevant brainstorms we had in the workroom if you want. It won't work directly as that mod had the pc as a drow, but you might be able to use some of the ideas.

[Deathsangel]

I remember we had plans for this in the (now innactive) Dark Elves mod.  I can send you the relevant brainstorms we had in the workroom if you want.  It won't work directly as that mod had the pc as a drow, but you might be able to use some of the ideas.

It is appreciated

@Hendryk:

To this I agree

[Lord Kain]

this is the largest problem with this idea, How does the PC surive?


First off the Drow are working for Irenicus.
Second your bodies are laying in the Elven city for several days while your fighting Irenicus in hell. The elves could easily have burned them to ash, if you had betrayed them and attacked the city.

Also to gain access to Jon, you have to awaken the avatar of the leaf. Who destorys most of Jon's army with in the city.

You would have to totally rewrite, the ending to SoA, you'd have to explain how he gets to Jon with out waking up the avatar of the leaf. How his body manages to stay intact while his spirit is battling in hell.

Finally Jon becoming an god helps Loith.

In the Drow pantheon has one good deity, Eilistraee.

The Seldarine has no evil deities among it. Jon becoming an evil god among them could only be an aid to loith.

Jon wants to drain the Tree of Life of its energy to become a god. Killing the Tree of Life would make Loith very happy because of all the pain it would cause surface elves.

The drow are allied with Jon.

This idea was soundly crushed before, I had a hand in it in the forum to Fallen Demons abandoned mod.

[Deathsangel]

I mainly think, if I am understanding your post correctly Lord Kain, that the idea indeed falls if Lolth think it good to have Irenicus as a god. In that case indeed they would not want the PC to help the Drow...

It kind of depends how much Lolth is pro-/anti- Jon ascending.

I can see your point that if Lolth is pro. The Drow won't work with you then. Whole idea over.

I don't see my idea having a problem with your ideas however. The Drow use the PC to get the lantern as they want to help Irenicus with their own army. It is infact a betrayel on a betrayel. The Drow act as if they want to betray Irenicus, but infact only want the lantern. I would love to have in my mod evil betraying evil for that happens more often.

Indeed Torn's idea means the drow work with you to take Suldanessallar and that creates the problems you say indeed. That is the problem that arises. Inconsistency with the ToB movie and SoA end. With my idea there is not such a problem as of the point when entering Suldanessallar all is the same again. It is just the Drow wanting to betray you.

As to clearify. This is my plan with just a slight bit of detail extra, which may clearify the difference.

* You have 'secured' the drow as allies
* They whipe the surface elves army of Elhan with your help
* They tell of the lantern, as John is there and they want to kill all of the surface elves
* You go the normal route as to get the lantern
* You bring it back to the Drow.
* They betray you as by attacking you, as they don't want a new evil god (you, not talking about Irenicus here)
* You slay them, pick up the lantern once again and go for the Suldanessallar as Irenicus is there.
* The surface elves have enough trouble as it is (will leave Elhan out of it) and do not mind you.
* You go about as normal to take down Irenicus, thus the elves praising you for saving their city (not knowing of the onslaught of before (think hard on it, or don't if you wish not a spoiler) as none escaped). Their fault, but any help against Irenicus is welcome. Change some dialog options here

Torn's idea is different, as he doesn't want this:

* They betray you as by attacking you, as they don't want a new evil god (you, not talking about Irenicus here)

To happen, but an continued alliance as to which I am opposed. For whatever reason they betray you (and yours is a good one Lord Kain), it makes sure that there is no trouble with the end of SoA and begin of ToB

[edit] I would still love to see that discussion as I mentioned in my previous post, but Fallen Demon did not post it unfortunatly (sorry misspelled, I know this, but I can't think of the proper one at the moment)

Edited by Deathsangel, 05 June 2005 - 02:07 AM.

[Hendryk]

@ Lord Kain. You keep insisting that Jon's ascension would be good for Lolth. That ignores the female superiority which is the basis of drow society. As a new god, Jon would need worshippers. As a mortal mage and former elf, he'd most naturally look for his first worshippers among Evil elven mages. The drow have more Evil elven mages than anyone, so Jon's becoming a god could very easily tear drow society apart. And Lolth could foresee that result and fear it.

As for the ToL, if the drow could, even temporarily occupy Sul, the Tree would be at *Lolth's* mercy. She could poison it and absorb its power herself. This would give all the benefits of a success for Jon and none of the drawbacks; no namby-pamby "sharing" of anything.

So, yes. The drow ally with Jon to bring down Sul. Once that's done though, I can't see the least reason for Lolth not wanting to double-cross Jon and keep all possible rewards for herself alone. And the PC would be a handy tool for the Jon double-cross, who could be double-crossed and slain in turn. That's the way of Evil as I see it, anyway. No honest cooperation anywhere at any level.

Edited by Hendryk, 05 June 2005 - 04:07 AM.

[Deathsangel]

That's the way of Evil as I see it, anyway.  No honest cooperation anywhere at any level.

:thumb: A point I wish to make as well in MftW

[Lord Kain]

you still have one last problem the only way to get to Jon is to awaken the Avatar of Rill. This allows the elves to retake the city. Your bodies are at there mercy while your fighting Jon in hell.

The surface elves would destory them for your betrayel. The Drow would destory them so they wouldn't have to reward you. So sure have the working for the drow option. You just never reach ToB because you have no body for your soul to return to. (or maybe you enter ToB and all your stuff is gone because the elves stole it.)

There is more to overcome then just the opening movie to ToB for this idea to work. Even if the Drow were able to hold the city (and you somehow reach Jon with out summoning the avatar) None of those Drow have the power to cause any real damage to the tree. Most of the Drow were ment to attack the surface temple and lure the elves army out of the city.

Evil and being a hero are not totally exclusive of each other. You can be a villian and a hero at the same time. Korgan is remembered in his epilogue as a Dwarven hero. An evil PC only allies with the elves because he know she can't reach Irenicus alone. However if the PC is clever at all he should realize that the Drow will backstab him the first chance they get.

I don't know how you can overcome the problem with the PC and party having their bodies lying helpless for vengeful elves or traitorous Drow waiting to robe you while their souls are fighting in hell.
And remember the party doesn?t know they?ll be dragged into hell.

I think I have figured a way around the avatar you need to summon. Instead of trading the eggs to the demon lord for a lousy halberd. You ask for his help in reaching Irenicus. The demon lord gives you an item to call him forth when you need him most.

This item couldn?t be used until you need to open the final gates to reach Irenicus thus avoiding summoning the avatar.