31 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

Oralpain, but why the fiend outnumber the celestials so much ? After all, the good planes are infinite as well.

[Bane]

Well since the devils and demons would never ally then at least we can breathe a little easy, although some deities like Bane would be allied to devils since their alignments match and im sure they see eye to eye.

[Feanor]

Well since the devils and demons would never ally then at least we can breathe a little easy, although some deities like Bane would be allied to devils since their alignments match and im sure they see eye to eye.

Demon Lord Graz'zt is trying to achieve this goal. But no deity would support a fiendish invasion on the Prime since it would affect their power profoundly.

[oralpain]

Oralpain, but why the fiend outnumber the celestials so much ? After all, the good planes are infinite as well.

Yes, the planes are infinite, but the various extra planar races, except possibly the tanar'ri, are not.

There are several reasons why fiends wildly out number celestials:

1. Fiends have a far lower standard for "initiation" into their lower ranks than the celestials do. Damn near anything is good enough to become a least fiend. After that the proportions of creatures advancing to greater forms are probably very similar, but the fiends have a MUCH larger base pool.

2. Fiends are proactive. They "corrupt" beings into following their views so they will have access to their petitioners when they die. Celstials try to encourage their own views wher applicable, but they are not willing (or able) to go to the same lengths. It's also easier to "fall" than to "rise".

3. Fiends go out of thier way to obtain more petitioners than they would normally have. The poach them from any place they can. They buy them if necissary (often in larval form). They obtain sould/life forces and forcibly convert them.

4. Some fiends can form spontaniously (Ahriman's blood becomes cornugons and pit fiends. Occasionaly tanar'ri errupt directly form the material of the abyss). Celestials cannot (to my knowledge).

5. The more you have, the more you can get. In eons past Baatezu and Tannar'ri encountered each other and quickly had to invent various methods to replenish members lost in battle.

6. Fiends have probably existed longer than celestials. The most powerful celestial races need gods, in one way or another. Good gods usually deem who and what becomes a celestial, and they decide who to advance and when. Fiends don't need any divine power watching over them.

Basically, fiends got a head start, and are willing to take more drastic measures to keep their populations at huge levels.

Edited by oralpain, 21 July 2005 - 08:47 AM.

[Cat87]

As to an invasion of the prime though, it would require a mage to carelessly open a gate to the lower planes and just take everything that came through.

[oralpain]

There are many other ways for fiends to get to the prime. The reason massive invasions are not more common has more to do with politics than anything.

[Feanor]

BTW, Baatezu are outnumbered by the Tanar'ri, but they compensate, being better organised and more submissive to their commanders. Could not the celestial do the same ?

[oralpain]

Well, that is one reason the celestials would probably hold out for a while. Still, the celestials are, as a whole, not as organized as the Baatezu. In a crisis they could easily put aside thier petty differences and become a mostly united front, but the baatezu are still the definition of organized, militaristic, evil.

Individually the celestials are also more powerful, but once again it still comes down to numbers. Their are probably several dozen to a few hundred solars, many hundreds to a few thousand planetars, a respectable amount of potent archons, and a mix of other greater celestials, but there are a million plus pit fiends (who are roughly on par with planetars themselves).

Celestials also have to be wary of the colateral damage rampaging fiends would cause. Many of them (esp the chaotic ones) would not bebale to just sit by and watch countless innocents suffer and die. They also would not consider some of the tactics's used to great effect by the Baatezu and Tanar'ri, who are more than willing to spend the lives of millions of their own troops to buy time or take a position of strength. To the fiends, troops are a resource to be spent. The Baatezu spend wisely, while the tanar'ri can afford to be hideously wasteful. The celestials obviously have a much more "good" view of things.

[NiGHTMARE]

The very nature of some of the good aligned planes would also cause major problems for the fiends. For example, in both Arcadia and Elysium harmful magic tends not to work (and in the latter's case, is often reflected back at the caster), in Elysium beings of evil alignments are incapable of travelling anywhere, and in the upper layer of Mount Celestia any evil being will die instantly.

Also, lets not forget the upper planes have far more than just celestials to protect them: besides the gods, there's also the petitioners to contend with, and their ranks will include almost every good aligned hero who has ever lived... many of whom will be extremely powerful.

[oralpain]

The majority of petitioners have no memories of their former lives and no access to previous powers, even if they where great heroes. There are notable exceptiosn though and they would cetainly make things more difficult for an invading army.

Alignment in of itself has nothing to do with travel in Elysium. Performing good actions is how one gets form one place to another in Elysium. Nothing prevents a powerful (intelgent and controled) fiend from doing good deeds, though it would be difficult for whole armies to get anywhere.

Also, as the outer planes depend on belief, getting enough evil being in one of the upper planes coudl throw things sufficently out of whack to get around many of the innate prohibitions of the plane.

Regardless, a war between a major fiendish race and the celestials would be hell for both sides.

[NiGHTMARE]

I know petitioners lose their memories, but I can't find anything about them losing their skills.

According to the Planewalker's Handbook, innate alignment is what gets you about on Elysium; performing good deeds just gets you where you want to go more quickly . Also, something tells me it's the intent behind performing a good deed which counts, not the deed itself . Besides, since they're stuck in one spot, they would most likely have to wait a *long* time before the opportunity to perform a good deed even presents itself...

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 24 July 2005 - 01:25 PM.

[oralpain]

Memories and skills are one and the same, in this sense. Most petitioners are 0-level humanoids, or whatever creatures are native the plane/realm they are in ("On Hallowed Ground", page 28-33).

"Planes of Conflict" specifically says it's good deeds that allows you to move through Elysium and that the opportunity to perfrom good deeds is reasonably common place. I tend to take the "Planes of Conflict" over the "Planewalkers Handbook" when talking about the literal wording of the information there in. The PwH is more orriented twords players and has some intentional ambiguities/innacuracies.

As for the intent being important, I'm not so sure it would be the main defining factor. A deed and it's results can be independant of it's original intent. The road to hell is often paved with good intentions, why can't the road to heaven be paved will foul ones?

Really though, thats a judgement each DM will have to make for him/herself.