34 replies to this topic

[Paktu]

I am really looking forward to the upcoming release of the new version of BP.  It will likely be the first time I play BG in well over a year, and I'm guessing I've gotten pretty rusty at the game.  I recall earlier versions of BP making the game very difficult (for me at least), so I would like to request that there be some method of reducing the difficulty for those of us who are newbies or intermediate players.

[hlidskialf]

There was such a system in the original BP. Use the game difficulty slider to set it by the encounters.

[Paktu]

Yeah, but doesn't that mean you only get half the XP for each kill if you set it below "normal"?

[horred the plague]

Yeah, but doesn't that mean you only get half the XP for each kill if you set it below "normal"?

If it does, I didn't do it.

I added a couple more difficulty-based changes, but that's all you'll see. I'm not correcting yet-another BW issue, if it indeed exists. As a matter of fact, I rather like the idea--no pain, no gain!

Edited by horred the plague, 18 July 2005 - 08:47 PM.

[ronin]

IMO the more difficult encounters only add to the game and make it more realistic. They make you think and use different strategies instead of bursting in and hacking and slashing. Would be nice to see all encounters done that way to make the entire game more realistic. I remember when I was playing Pen and Paper D&D back when first edition came out, a goblin rolled a natural 20 and killed me outright. That sort of thing in a computer game keeps you realistic and on your toes.

ronin

[Himself]

I dont really mind how hard it gets as long as it doesnt force me to powerplay or die.

What measures the difficult of an encounter is not an "slider" but the sum of how much experience a group (or the leader) has, more expereince = more itens and resources.

There is a line that you can put at area scripts (I believe its area.. been ages since I dont touch it), that checks for the experience, and you can set the area to spawn much harder acording to the experience check.

Worked wonders for me, had to remake a whole lot of areas using it to find the setup that I would like, original BP was too much power... er.. (edit) hard for my reality taste (dont think a real group of adventures would ever survive 24 hours in BP)

Just please consider the folowing everytime you're going to make an area become really hard:

Edited by Himself, 01 August 2005 - 01:29 PM.

[Himself]

Example 1:

group finds an old hut

Charname: This one looks like an abandoned old hut.
Party: Should we check inside ?
Charname: I guess so..

Party enters old hut and is utterly and ultimately destroyed by mists, vampires and other undeads.

[Himself]

Example 2:

group finds an old hut

Charname: Okay everyone stop, I'm going to tell what weapon and itens each of you must wear, then we start buffing undead wise and after that we enter and storm the whole place!!
Party: How the heck do you know that, arent we just going to spend our useful resources ?¿?
Charname: Just do as I say, or do you wanna die ?
Party: Oh yea.. its like that time we were going to climb up the second floor in Valygars house.. we better do as you say then.

Party enters old hust and is utterly and ultimately successful versus undead crew.

[Himself]

Example 3:

group finds and old hut

Charname gets close to it, text pops up in the screen "An icy cold wind briefly rips trough your face, it sharpens your senses and makes you aware of the palpable evil surrounding this old hut."

Charname: Oh now we have some atmosphere, I like this DM better! He doesnt send us unaware to certain death nor does he force us to powerplay!
Party: Er... what did you just say ??
Charname: Oh nothing.. It's just like... this old hut MAY not be as abandoned as it looks, we should procced with care, get some more protection going just in case...

Party enters the old hut and after a fierce battle is able to defeat the accursed foes.

Edited by Himself, 01 August 2005 - 12:42 PM.

[Himself]

Hate it when some modders turn the game in powerplay or die, BP is a great mod but the first time I played it got me so angry, was a whole higher level to go and survive some beginner places without getting the powerplay going.

In any decent D&D setting, when you're to face some very strong foe or difficult situation you always get clues or an item made specially for this matter.

Its not like "oh I cant see cause its invisible but there comes the super strong mutant ninja from outter space spirit spectral troll and his cousin from the 9999999 layer of hell Shadowfiend sidekicker, you got no clue and no special item for them so cross your fingers man!!"

Its not like I cant defeat anything, its just that everytime they come up with "the world is not fair nor a safe place" and I must powerplay my way out of the hard situations the balance between a "hack and slash" and "deep feeling CRPG" gets heavier towards the wrong side.

Tactic is what we make of it, but the atmosphere is either there or not, no much use to pretend or fake it.

Edited by Himself, 01 August 2005 - 01:34 PM.

[hlidskialf]

*Waves at Himself*
Haven't seen ya' in ages mate. Welcome back!

[Chevalier]

BP is for players who have played BG2 many times, and wants to make it fresh by makeing you have work to survive. Yes, you know whats going to happen in the regular game (what did you think the first time you met the new shadows?)

[Himself]

Heya hlid

Well there I was looking my mails and then there was the message Forgotten Wars has moved!

And then it came to me "heck they send that just to make me play that darn game again.." and here I'm

Man I can play this game 200 times and still find it great, but as soon as somebody makes me got out of the roleplay and deep into the mechanics, it become as meaningless, vain and empty as most games in existence... just cant help but feel pitiful for those who do that. There are dozens of real time tactical games where you can face real peole for challenge, there isnt a game with the atmosphere and feeling of BG, and people who rip off these elements of the game.. its just plain wrong.

Make it hard but make it right, not just "oh there comes the impossible guys whose existence in the game is pretty pointless and have no background or plot whatsoever they just go down and break the in-game logic of events and kick to the sky the whole difficulty setting for this stage" (ie: most times modders who do that make you enter the situation unwarned and it breaks the whole difficult setting for that part of the game, and a real group in that situation would stand 99.99% chance of defeat) its just plain wrong, I hope those of you who are going to cope along can see it atleast.

Oh its nice to be back

EDIT

Back from the driving lessons

Er.. now its just blablabla but keep reading if you've got to this point B)

Hmm the hardest battle ever for me in this game was improved gromnir (I think that is his name cant remember, the orc from that city under siege in ToB)

When I've got to play ToB for the first time I looked my group and was thinking: "gee every single one here is godlike by him/herself, I dont believe any enemy can stand a chance, so better try those improved guys before I feel sorry for not doing so".

First battle was piece of cake, everything was going smooth til I've got to that city under siege and started to hunt the orc felow.

Standing from the floor right under where gromnir and his baddies stood, my party was very tired, they complained a lot, had few itens and spells left, they were almost at breaking point.

But as leader of that group.. I couldnt go back at the time. The city was under siege, there wasnt time to rest, and that gromnir looked to be responsible for a lot of things. The orc needed to be dealt with and that was the moment, there was no going back. Maybe when we were done with him, we could be allowed some rest, cause the city would resist with a renewed spirit. MAYBE we could rest then.

It couldnt be that difficult.. after all the guy was hiding himself from the rest of the city, and I did beat a lot of his underlings to get there.. maybe he was a coward and we wouldnt even had to fight.

Man did I get the hell beaten out of me and my party after going up those stairs. It took me 3 hours to win that battle, ya I could probably have won easy if I were to sleep and buff and only then go up.. but that would be some sort of cheating, the last thing I need to think of myself is somebody who must resort to this kind of cheap methods to win against an AI.

MAN THAT WAS HARD, but at every new load I was a step further towards winning, cause I knew it wasnt impossible, it did not break the difficulty setting for that part of the game, it didnt force me to explore AI gaps, nor lure enemies or use any other kind of cheap tactics, and it all just turned out hard that way cause my playstyle made it be so.

Whole point of the thing ? Most of the game is as hard as you make it be. Modders should spend their time in quality and creative content for the game... theres no point in a MOD that states "in this mod you're not alowed to play as you want, cause Its so fricking hard you can only powerplay or die" and you walk into a room with 200 hyper irenicus and melissans, it will be new ? YA ! It will be hard? YA ! It will be playable ? For some.. YA! Beyond that ?.. Makes BG look stupid and mediocre, and the final "look" of the game is what counts in the long run.

Oh well I dont claim the modders here or anywhere do that.. but sometimes they tend to cross the line a bit.. I'm just trying to show and back up my point that modders must spend more time in creative content and less time in the "10 ways to make an stage that non-powerplayers will deem impossible".

They will do what they wish anyway I can just try to scream real loud

*hugs the moddders

Edited by Himself, 02 August 2005 - 10:39 AM.

[horred the plague]

Heya hlid

Well there I was looking my mails and then there was the message Forgotten Wars has moved!

And then it came to me "heck they send that just to make me play that darn game again.." and here I'm

Man I can play this game 200 times and still find it great, but as soon as somebody makes me got out of the roleplay and deep into the mechanics, it become as meaningless, vain and empty as most games in existence... just cant help but feel pitiful for those who do that. There are dozens of real time tactical games where you can face real peole for challenge, there isnt a game with the atmosphere and feeling of BG, and people who rip off these elements of the game.. its just plain wrong.

Make it hard but make it right, not just "oh there comes the impossible guys whose existence in the game is pretty pointless and have no background or plot whatsoever they just go down and break the in-game logic of events and kick to the sky the whole difficulty setting for this stage" (ie: most times modders who do that make you enter the situation unwarned and it breaks the whole difficult setting for that part of the game, and a real group in that situation would stand 99.99% chance of defeat) its just plain wrong, I hope those of you who are going to cope along can see it atleast.

Oh its nice to be back

EDIT

Back from the driving lessons 

Er.. now its just blablabla but keep reading if you've got to this point  B)

Hmm the hardest battle ever for me in this game was improved gromnir (I think that is his name cant remember, the orc from that city under siege in ToB)

When I've got to play ToB for the first time I looked my group and was thinking: "gee every single one here is godlike by him/herself, I dont believe any enemy can stand a chance, so better try those improved guys before I feel sorry for not doing so".

First battle was piece of cake, everything was going smooth til I've got to that city under siege and started to hunt the orc felow.

Standing from the floor right under where gromnir and his baddies stood, my party was very tired, they complained a lot, had few itens and spells left, they were almost at breaking point.

But as leader of that group.. I couldnt go back at the time. The city was under siege, there wasnt time to rest, and that gromnir looked to be responsible for a lot of things. The orc needed to be dealt with and that was the moment, there was no going back. Maybe when we were done with him, we could be allowed some rest, cause the city would resist with a renewed spirit. MAYBE we could rest then.

It couldnt be that difficult.. after all the guy was hiding himself from the rest of the city, and I did beat a lot of his underlings to get there.. maybe he was a coward and we wouldnt even had to fight.

Man did I get the hell beaten out of me and my party after going up those stairs. It took me 3 hours to win that battle, ya I could probably have won easy if I were to sleep and buff and only then go up.. but that would be some sort of cheating, the last thing I need to think of myself is somebody who must resort to this kind of cheap methods to win against an AI.

MAN THAT WAS HARD, but at every new load I was a step further towards winning, cause I knew it wasnt impossible, it did not break the difficulty setting for that part of the game, it didnt force me to explore AI gaps, nor lure enemies or use any other kind of cheap tactics, and it all just turned out hard that way cause my playstyle made it be so.

Whole point of the thing ? Most of the game is as hard as you make it be. Modders should spend their time in quality and creative content for the game... theres no point in a MOD that states "in this mod you're not alowed to play as you want, cause Its so fricking hard you can only powerplay or die" and you walk into a room with 200 hyper irenicus and melissans, it will be new ? YA ! It will be hard? YA ! It will be playable ? For some.. YA! Beyond that ?.. Makes BG look stupid and mediocre, and the final "look" of the game is what counts in the long run.

Oh well I dont claim the modders here or anywhere do that.. but sometimes they tend to cross the line a bit.. I'm just trying to show and back up my point that modders must spend more time in creative content and less time in the "10 ways to make an stage that non-powerplayers will deem impossible".

They will do what they wish anyway I can just try to scream real loud

*hugs the moddders 

Most of the adjustments to ToB difficulty come directly from the Ascension mod, which was designed by David Gaider, the lead designer of BGII-ToB. Just wait till you see the BP-Ascension component in the upcoming BP-weidu. Mistakes that the original IEEAIS team had made in the coding (due mainly to broken Object identifiers in the scripting language--things I uncovered long after the release of Ascension). Also, my improved detectable stats system (adapted from Kensai Ryu's files that were a part of Ascension, updated with several more spells and "parallels" between STATS.IDS and the engines "effects"--which caused several of KR's numerical entry choices to produce undesirable side effects.

In short, the new BP-Ascension should be even more difficult-as the scripts should finally be doing what the authors intended. It also is now an optional component. The rest of BP's AI is not optional--it is a major part of what will remain of BP after its fixes and compatibility fixes have been moved from BP to their proper weidu mod (TDD,SoS, or TS). It also sets the stage for other more advanced scripting, in upcoming mods. Note that advanced scripting can be used for more than just "difficulty"--it can also be used to simulate a deeper level of artificial intelligence and interaction. This is demonstrated in BP--it is why such silly things as bugbears, mephits, and goblins can now provide a moderate challenge in jonny's dungeon. They think a little better, choose their targets as a creature of moderate intelligence should (not just Attack(NearestEnemyOf(Myself)))--the way Bioware's orignial generic AI scripts were set up. In unmodded BGII-SoA, did you ever lead a monster in a circle around your party, while the rest of the group beat it to smithereens? I did, it was the logical choice. And it worked every time, with any non-spellcasting creature. And it got boring really quick...

[Himself]

Heya Horred, you know I tend to criticise too much uh

Everything from the old BP was nice for me, exception to the improved Ilych, that shadow behind a door above the clone room also would end up killing some people 9 out 10 times unless I would play cheap, and mostly those invincib, I mean invisible trolls. The shadows casting chaos (or was it confusion ?) werent that bad would just reload 30 or 40% of the time, a minor matter of luck nothing strategy related, er ok this can go on but better not

Only main issue that came up was , I'll try to draw it


..............................________
...................3.........|...............|
1 ........2.................|)......5.....|..6
.......................... 4.|..............|
..............................-------------

EDIT: Damn can this look any worse ?


1 is my party.

2 is a group of monster that sees my party, screams an alert and comes my way.

3 is another group of monsters that hears the alert from 2, screams a new alert and comes my way.

4 is a group that hears the new alert from 3, screams another new alert and comes my way.

5 is a group inside a room that (people told me that they shouldnt but they still did hear) hear the alert from 4, they cant come my way but they'll get as near to the door or wall facing me as they can, also they'll shout an alert too.

6 Another group and god only knows if there isnt another group close, four of them should be more than enough to erase my party or make us retreat, they'll hear the alert from 5, make a new alert, and as long as there is a path available they'll try to come my way.

Dunno why, in some areas it happened much more than others. I had to set a lower value to how far the warning goes or I would sometimes end up with the whole area upon me at the same time, and in Nalias Keep 1rst floor for example or the slavers ship that was something real bad. I also could not tell why enemies inside rooms would hear the alert and come to the nearest wall/door facing the side my group was.

EDIT2: I know there are starting groups that come up with a much higher level, but if this mod is for BG2 SoA, it should have in mind a starting party from BG2 SoA, not a "remove XP limit from BG1 and lets start BG2 at lvl 13 or just go BP- BGT + whatever" or a group thats goes NeJ and then come back. IMO its very unfair to set the beggining of the game to be extremely hard due to those cases.

But its good to know you're making the AI even more smarter than last time, just try to save the hordes of strong ones for the later stages.. think of my poor 7-8th level, naked and goldless starting groups, that would never dare to sleep in that place, nor refusing to help dear Nalia

Edited by Himself, 06 August 2005 - 08:49 PM.

[Delight]

S-F-Ling sucks .
Making mods for a roleplaying game that make it so difficult that it cannot be completed without a single save is pointless and kills the spirit of RPG.
When I hear about mods like Tactics, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
It would be better if people would dedicate their time to adding new experiences for players instead of making mods that turn a noble RPG into a primitive pseudo-tactical nightmare.

[Ferrumach]

Wait a little when you will receive more XP...


And again for the beginning : it is hard but really doable, irenicus dunjeon is very well done: thanks horred !! : one of the part of BP that i have the most appreciate

and balanced i would say... : it is a jail of an ubber sorcerer and it is not ilych of tactic mods.

Sorry to say that... but do you know... : chromatic orb++, doom++, slow++, dispell magic +++, magic missile, great curse, chaos, arrow of fire, panic, horror etc...., invisibility potions or spell etc....

Edited by Ferrumach, 18 August 2005 - 01:17 PM.