31 replies to this topic

[JemyM]

While fantasy games already break traditions in terms of strong female heroines in medieval settings, being openminded to gay/bi relations still seem to rattle in the shadows. Unlike Maxis, our favorite gamedevelopers Bioware/Obsidian havnt taken this step yet.

When I played Baldurs Gate 2 I sucessfully broke the barrier with Sabre's mod, allowing a same-sex romance with one of the normally hetero npc's. In both KOTOR & KOTORII I managed the same by changing my character's gender through a character editor.

Now I have just completed a "hack" for Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. This was a bit more difficult, but my hack disable all gender-specific limits for the purpose of flirting and even romancing same-sex NPC's. I have also done minor tweaks to dialogue to make them fit regardless of the protagonist gender. At this moment the module simply mirrors the options of which NPC you may romance (male+valen, female+aribeth/nathyra), but I have planned to continue to work on it until it's possible to pursue all 3 NPC romances at the same time. I have previously made a similar mod for "Singles" which was unfortunately never finished.

I have not yet released this mod. Before I bother to do that it needs proper testing. My reason to write about it here is that I seek who are interested to create similar hacks for current and future rpg's.

The main idea is to dig into the mechanics and produce similar "Rainbow" mods for all future Bioware/Obsidian games and maybe also games from other companies. All it takes is some technical skill, some code digging, some betatesting and an open mind that isnt disgusted by the thought of adjusting romantic dialogue for "both roads" regardless of your own "alignment". The next project in that case would ofcourse be NWN2 and then KOTORIII.

-edit- (Toned down a bit to focus on the essentials)

Edited by JemyM, 04 February 2006 - 01:06 AM.

[AnnabelleRose]

I don't play any of the games you have mentioned (mostly because after my comp could not handle NWN1 I gave up on them), but I fully support mods of this like.

Note that any posts containing "ONG HUMOSAXUALETY IZ EVAL!!!121!212!!!!!" will be deleted.

Let's keep this thread civil, I'll be watching.

[Bill Bisco]

"ONG HUMOSAXUALETY IZ EVAL!!!121!212!!!!!

Hehe, That is the great thing about mods, you can choose which ones you want to put in and if you don't like one, you don't have to have it.

If your mods are well made, then I am sure many people will download and enjoy them. Best of Luck.

[jcompton]

Now I have just completed a "hack" for Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark. This was a bit more difficult, but my hack disable all gender-specific limits for the purpose of flirting and even romancing same-sex NPC's. I have also done minor tweaks to dialogue to make them fit regardless of the protagonist gender. At this moment the module simply mirrors the options of which NPC you may romance (male+valen, female+aribeth/nathyra), but I have planned to continue to work on it until it's possible to pursue all 3 NPC romances at the same time.

I have not yet released this mod. Before I bother to do that it needs proper testing. My reason to write about it here is that I seek likeminded people who are interested to create similar mods. Note that I am straight. I do this purely out of my free-spirited nature to rebel against the junkpile of pre-historic ideologies.

You may find that not everyone believes that all fictional characters should be polyamorously bisexual. If you believe this relegates their opinion (or indeed, their creative decisions) to the "junkpile of pre-historic ideologies"... best of luck to you.

[Kulyok]

At this moment the module simply mirrors the options of which NPC you may romance (male+valen, female+aribeth/nathyra), but I have planned to continue to work on it until it's possible to pursue all 3 NPC romances at the same time.

You want the Ease of Use mod collection for Baldur's Gate II.

[JemyM]

sorry for playing guest

[NiGHTMARE]

Just because someone happens to not have any gay or lesbian characteries in their story, it doesn't automatically mean that person is anti-homosexual.

[Grim Squeaker]

For the record, almost every argument for and against canon straight characters becoming bisexual has been discussed in refernece to my Viconia Relationship mod and really don't need to be repeated.

[Seifer]

For the record, almost every argument for and against canon straight characters becoming bisexual has been discussed in refernece to my Viconia Relationship mod and really don't need to be repeated.

Brilliant marketing Dave! I've missed that one.

My only comment is on the perceived authenticity of the game or the added material. It's easy to take liberal attitudes towards homosexuality and then raise issues regarding characters whilst bemoaning the lack of bravery in the game developers but such liberalism wasn't about I'd imagine in the BG setting. A moot point is to consider if homosexuality would be seen as more then a mental disease, as it was across psychological fields until the 60's.

I'm all in favour of breaking the 4th wall but only if done properly and not in a manner that cries attention to itself. In this, I think Chloe works well.

[AnnabelleRose]

Proud of everyone, this has stayed very civil.

To clarify my original post, I was not saying everyone had to blindly say "I LOVE IT!!!!", more of a "let's discuss, but keep it civil and adult".

Discuss how it affects the games, not real world religion.

[SimDing0]

I can't help feeling that entirely too much effort goes into discussing the canonity of homosexuality. I'm sure that a well-executed bisexual romance can be just as successful as a heterosexual romance. I have yet to see a well-executed one. Why? Because the large bulk of bisexual romances derive from a desire to add unique, tacky selling points to a mod, rather than because the character neccessarily develops that way. I reiterate that nobody should approach an NPC mod by considering what features they want to include before they've developed the character to deliver them.

Edited by SimDing0, 03 February 2006 - 11:59 AM.

[Delight]

Well said.
NPCs are people too.

My only comment is on the perceived authenticity of the game or the added material. It's easy to take liberal attitudes towards homosexuality and then raise issues regarding characters whilst bemoaning the lack of bravery in the game developers but such liberalism wasn't about I'd imagine in the BG setting. A moot point is to consider if homosexuality would be seen as more then a mental disease, as it was across psychological fields until the 60's.

I never met a psychologist when I was playing BG, and I never heard about psychologists being present in Realms.

[XCIX]

Umm...not to quibble but homosexuality is not a modern phenomenon; it has been around for centuries. One flatters oneself by thinking that one is a "rebel" for being an activist/proponent for same-sex proclivities. It will be around whether one promotes it or not. I apologize that this might sound insulting but I find it mildly amusing that there are those who believe that homosexuality is an original idea and that congratulate themselves for being open-minded, "free-spirited", and progressive by embracing/tolerating it because of that belief. Any cursory survey of history will find men and women using sexual drives outside the bounds of procreation in differing forms of recreation. It's as ancient as the wheel.

Although my own tastes find such subject matter boring and unoriginal, I feel if that if one wants to create or play a mod with such themes that that is one's own business. This is just a game, simple entertainment, and I enjoy the many mods and admire the creators of them for the hard work and knowledge they employ when they envision, create, and add material to such a fun game and want others to be able to do the same.

That being said, my first hope is that while engaged in the creation of such "rainbow" material that those so engaged will be able to manage the fervor of their proselytizing and their supercilious intolerance for others beliefs and traditions. Not to be patronizing but being respectful and tolerant of others beliefs apply not only to those who don't approve of homosexuality but also to those who do approve/endorse it.

My second hope is similar to the first in that instead of going on a crusade to "overthrow game conservatism" that modders just continue to create fun mods that, to echo Simding0's point, are free from tacky selling points in an attempt at being unique.

[JemyM]

For the record, almost every argument for and against canon straight characters becoming bisexual has been discussed in refernece to my Viconia Relationship mod and really don't need to be repeated.

I can honestly say I was looking for a more technical discussion about dissecting in-game resources to change game mechanics, although I was guessing some kind of discussion about the theme was inevitable.

One bonus, for thoose who are interested, is ofcourse to learn how Bioware/Obsidian constructed their romance mechanics.

Edited by JemyM, 04 February 2006 - 12:18 AM.

[JemyM]

That being said- I still am somewhat bemused about changing Valen, Aribeth, or Neth's sexuality. No, there's not any 'proof' that they're not bisexual, but why not simply make a new mod with your own bi or gay romance, or figure out how to mod/override in a new henchman ala Micha in SoU?

Bioware/Obsidian (and previously Black Isle)'s games is a great part of my history. I have played all their games and I remember the experience. One thing that makes them so good is that they really makes you feel great regardless of your own desires. If you have the desire to do right, they really makes you feel like a glorious hero. If you have the desire to be evil, they really makes you feel like an evil overlord.
Giving them more freedom when it comes with romance, however, makes them one step closer to perfect.

I personally find the whole option of being "evil" in theese games to be pushed and "unrealistic" in attempt to feed the mind of those who feel the need of being a jerk. With that, I justify myself for changing the game to make it possible to romance more characters in more directions.

I would love to make it possible to add Micha in your troupe in SoU, although that is an effort that might be a bit more than I can take right now as I am heavily occupied with a major module elsewhere. Messing with the HotU romance's have helped me finding ideas upon how to build romances for that game.


Having said that, I modified Valen's repeated "Lady" into "Lord", and the result is ok. Valen unlike Anoman is more of a gentleman and fits very well in a homosexual romance. Although I personally feel that Valen adressing his 'lover' as "Lord" compared to "Lady" sounds a bit... uhm... kinky...

Nathyra and Aribeth are both very strong female heroines and there's dialogue in which they openly accept a polyamori relationship with the protagonist. This doesnt openly suggest that Aribeth or Nathyra is bisexual, but after scanning through all their dialogue they fit very well into that role. Both have issues with men btw.

Again, ofcourse, fantasy is what you mind makes it to be. If you feel that some of theese characters work great as something, your mind will adjust to make it feel "fitting".

Edited by JemyM, 04 February 2006 - 12:56 AM.