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Why is Cloak of Non-Detection detectable?


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#1 Azazello

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 05:56 AM

"Non-detectable by magical means such as Detect Invisibility and True Sight."

Yet when duergar priests/mages (I'm in the last quest of DSotSC) cast Detect Inv, True Sight and Detect Illusion (even the thieves' version), it's punching thru the cloaking.

I look at CLCK06.ITM in both MegaInstall and a regular ToB game and they both have the same effect of Non-detection assigned. So I'm guessing that BP scripting is overriding this Non-detection effect. If I'm wrong, please move to proper forum.

Also, I searched the site for any reports of this "feature"; did not find any hits.

Possible related item: when duergar thieves do a successful Detect Illusion, it is clearing the entire map. I don't like this, don't want it, but am curious to know if my party's thieves ability will be just as overpowered?

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#2 Creepin

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 07:54 AM

I look at CLCK06.ITM in both MegaInstall and a regular ToB game and they both have the same effect of Non-detection assigned. So I'm guessing that BP scripting is overriding this Non-detection effect.

Unless I'm mistaken, CoND wasn't working in regular game as well in regard of staying non-detected. Ideally, it should to 2 things: not trigger casting of True Seeing and the like by enemy scripts and not reveal it's wearer if such spell was cast anyway. IIRC, none of this was implemented in vanilla BG2.

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#3 Azazello

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 01:04 PM

I was afraid of that. I'm gonna try somethin'. In the Ruad mod there's a Ring of Divination that gives Spell Immunity: Divination; gonna apply the effects that are in that item to make CoND a "Cloak of Non-Divination". I'll report on the results. edit: works like a charm!

Still interested in the thieves' super Detect Illusion powers... Posted Image

Edited by Azazello, 16 June 2006 - 02:53 PM.


#4 billy3

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 08:48 PM

what abou the "faded cloak"? the one that's supposed to give 75% invisibility? I think it's broken too.

#5 Creepin

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Posted 16 June 2006 - 09:59 PM

I was afraid of that. I'm gonna try somethin'. In the Ruad mod there's a Ring of Divination that gives Spell Immunity: Divination; gonna apply the effects that are in that item to make CoND a "Cloak of Non-Divination". I'll report on the results. edit: works like a charm!

Nice. Could you attach it somewhere please, for I don't know (yet) how to work with items myself? :)

EDIT: Hmm, what this thing needs to fully become what it was intended to be is "!HasItemEquiped(LastSeenBy(),Clck06)" restraining trigger added to mob's TrueSeeing snippets of scripts (though it will require some more research if this won't break cre's ability to detect other, just invisible, PCs) :)

Edited by Creepin, 16 June 2006 - 10:10 PM.

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#6 Azazello

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 01:50 AM

what abou the "faded cloak"? the one that's supposed to give 75% invisibility? I think it's broken too.

Nah, it's not broken. That item is, ya know, a joke!

Creepin, here's the "Cloak of Non-Divination". Of course, just drop it into override folder. I hope the changes carry over into the file; you should see some glowy animation around the character, or maybe not.

Is Non-Detection different from Non-Divination? I can't think of any scenarios that says they are, so I guess this makes the cloak the way it was originally intended.

Attached File  CLCK06.ITM   306bytes   233 downloads

Edited by Azazello, 11 September 2008 - 09:21 PM.


#7 Creepin

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 02:11 AM

K, get it, thanks :)

Is Non-Detection different from Non-Divination? I can't think of any scenarios that says they are, so I guess this makes the cloak the way it was originally intended.

If I understand right, your version of Clck16 will prevent you from falling from invis in case some enemy utters TrueSeeing and the like, BUT it will not prevent enemies from wasting time and memorized spells in repeating attempts to dispel invisibility, which is both illogical (hey, not only they don't see you, they are also couldn't detect you, remember?) and unfair - round wasted at better. Hence my idea ^_^

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#8 amitlath

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 07:57 AM

I was afraid of that. I'm gonna try somethin'. In the Ruad mod there's a Ring of Divination that gives Spell Immunity: Divination; gonna apply the effects that are in that item to make CoND a "Cloak of Non-Divination". I'll report on the results. edit: works like a charm!

could you please attach your modified cond? i cant open ruad's ring of divination in dltcep. says "cant load item". or maybe you could tell what effects to apply to cond.

EDIT: please ignore the post.. i didnt notice the already attached item.

Edited by amitlath, 17 June 2006 - 07:58 AM.


#9 amitlath

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 08:03 AM

i cant seem to open the new clck06.itm in dltcep either! are you ppl able to open it? it says "cant read item".

#10 Creepin

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 12:33 PM

I personally believed Azazello on his word, since I don't know how to edit items anyway. Perhaps you could check it in NI - it shows effects attached to items as well :)

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#11 Azazello

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Posted 17 June 2006 - 02:58 PM

...it will not prevent enemies from wasting time and memorized spells in repeating attempts to dispel invisibility, which is both illogical (hey, not only they don't see you, they are also couldn't detect you, remember?) and unfair - round wasted at better. Hence my idea ^_^

Well, hey, if those enemies are so stupid as to keep trying to find me... :lol:
Your idea would actually make them smart. I wonder if BP or other AI scripting do this.

amitlath, I used NI. What I did was remove the useless Non-detection Effect and added 'Protection from spell school', within which chose school 'Divination'.

Also added another Effect - which is not necessary - 'Modify script state', within which chose state WIZARD_SPELL_IMMUNITY. I think all this effect does is add a glowy thing around the character wearing the cloak.

Reminder: all credit goes to Moonfruit who created the Ruad mod.

#12 amitlath

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 09:53 AM

hi, thanks for ur imroved cond. however i tried to use it in the underdark against the kua toa guys and well, they werent fooled by it. they just came for me immediately. is this supposed to happen?

#13 Azazello

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Posted 21 June 2006 - 08:33 PM

The AI in some scripts use a command something like NearestEnemyOf(Myself) so they will target you even if they can't "see" you. Yes, it is technically cheesy, but without it the cloak (and other tactics) would definitely be too overpowered.

#14 horred the plague

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 04:13 AM

To clear up some scripting misconceptions:

ModifyScriptState: WIZARD_SPELL_IMMUNITY All this does is make the Spell Immunity state detectable by a script; nothing more. (This "could" be used to help shut down your repeated Divination spell casting, if 1) you knew of a specific creature that would actually cast this sooo many times it would be worthwhile 2) it was scriptedproperly).

NearestEnemyOf: This IS a sight-dependent check. No reliable way to check this against "those kuo-toa guys...you know, the ones in the underdark" :rolleyes: Specifics specifics specifics...these can yield results.

#15 Creepin

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 04:33 AM

NearestEnemyOf: This IS a sight-dependent check.

Seriously? You mean that things like
IF
   Detect(NearestEnemyOf())
THEN
   RESPONSE #100
	  DisplayStringHead(LastSeenBy(Myself),99999) 
END
shouldn't work? :blink:
//I'm speaking about situation when this NearestEnemyOf is invisible, of course.

Edited by Creepin, 23 June 2006 - 04:42 AM.

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#16 Azazello

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Posted 23 June 2006 - 10:04 AM

horred, no way I gonna debate you on scripting! :)

In the SharNadal script, he casts spells against a character that had the cloak on; and on characters that are not within sight. Here's a sample command:
ForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_whatever)

Is it the ForceSpell component that overrides the sight dependency?


And could you answer the question about the thieves' superDetectIllusionpower...

Edited by Azazello, 23 June 2006 - 12:01 PM.


#17 horred the plague

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Posted 24 June 2006 - 05:50 AM

horred, no way I gonna debate you on scripting! :)

In the SharNadal script, he casts spells against a character that had the cloak on; and on characters that are not within sight. Here's a sample command:
ForceSpell(NearestEnemyOf(Myself),WIZARD_whatever)

Is it the ForceSpell component that overrides the sight dependency?


And could you answer the question about the thieves' superDetectIllusionpower...



Here is the research I did on Objects.IDS in script blocks, so many long years ago. For those who never perused this. IGI promised me to get this into IEDSP years ago, but never did. :angry: Anyways....

Perhaps it is the "Force" (use it well, young padawan :Poke: ) that causes this to bypass sight checks. Perhaps the improperly-working cloak is failing to some Detect Invisibility by Script effect. I'm not sure, I don't have the specific data... :whistling:

And what exactly do you mean by "clear the whole screen"? Okay....I see a problem with the spell; it wasn't set up properly for weidu (appending the projectile). (A few minutes later...) okay, I just added it, let me run the installer. (A few more minutes later...) Yup, worked fine.

I'll keep combing the forums for unresolved bugs that are BP's fault, and then get this new edition uploaded.