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Anyway to play SOS, TDD, CTB, and TS with Tactics?


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#1 -guest-

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 12:24 AM

Hi, I really love the original Tataics mod and the tougher Bhaal spawn battles so which part of the BP mod does not work with Tactics? I think TS and CTB are Weidu so can I have TS, CTB, and Tactics, and do not install SOS and TDD?

#2 glx

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 01:03 AM

i hope you have read the BP readme there is exactly written why and which components are already included, incompatible etc.

#3 ronin

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 01:06 AM

All of those mods are weidu and if you install tactics on top of them you will break your game.

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#4 seanas

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 01:14 AM

there's weidu and then there's weidu...

the old weidu mods - such as tactics - overwrite files rather than merely editing them; so any mod which you install beforehand that modifies any files that tactics overwrites will be broken. there's no way around this short of someone sitting down and completely re-writing tactics to make it compatible with other file-patching (rather than file overwriting) mods.

which, funnily enough, is what horred did in BP: almost all of the tactics components - or non-cheating versions thereof - are included in BP. the BP readme (included in the download, and stickied in the BP forum) lists the components of tactics which are included in BP. so why you'd need to install tactics escapes me, to be honest.

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#5 Salk

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 09:19 AM

...so why you'd need to install tactics escapes me, to be honest.


While what you say is certainly true for a biggest part, it's also true that there are several components in Tactics that are not present in BP (I also have a couple that I'd like to keep in the game honestly) although I believe that nobody should sacrifice Big Picture in favour of an old mod like Tactics which is now really obsolete not only for its installation prone to break other Mods but also because Big Picture is superior in practically any aspect...

Did I tell you guys I dreamt of BP 178 ? :whistling:

Edited by Salk, 21 November 2006 - 09:19 AM.


#6 dragonian

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 12:12 PM

if you like you can be our guinea pig and try installin tactics at the very beginning of your install when there is nothing to be broken , then install rest of the mods and then tell us the results (it might work in my opinion but i`m no modder)

Edited by dragonian, 21 November 2006 - 12:13 PM.


#7 pro5

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 12:37 PM

Hi, I really love the original Tataics mod and the tougher Bhaal spawn battles so which part of the BP mod does not work with Tactics? I think TS and CTB are Weidu so can I have TS, CTB, and Tactics, and do not install SOS and TDD?

BP is a separate mod which can be used with or without TS,CTB,TDD,SOS. It includes (and improves) most Tactics components, and much other stuff. Like people say, read the BP readme and all will become clear. ;)

#8 Azazello

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Posted 21 November 2006 - 06:55 PM

what parts of Tactics are included in BP?

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#9 seanas

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 02:02 AM

what parts of Tactics are included in BP?

cool - i'd forgotten i'd made that list. it's actually a bit out of date tho: the only components of Tactics that absolutely aren't included in any form in BP are:

* Fighter-Class Archer Kit
* Anti-Paladin Kit
* SimDing0's Improved Oasis (ToB Required)

so: two kits, and a component that is now in Sim's questpack anyways, unless i'm mistaken. again: why bother with a broken mod?

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|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||


#10 erebusant

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 05:48 AM


what parts of Tactics are included in BP?

cool - i'd forgotten i'd made that list. it's actually a bit out of date tho: the only components of Tactics that absolutely aren't included in any form in BP are:

* Fighter-Class Archer Kit
* Anti-Paladin Kit
* SimDing0's Improved Oasis (ToB Required)

so: two kits, and a component that is now in Sim's questpack anyways, unless i'm mistaken. again: why bother with a broken mod?





I think the "Improved Irenicus" component should be compatible with BP as per Horred in this thread: http://www.shsforums...proved Irenicus

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#11 Azazello

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:14 AM

@seanas:
'Tougher Fire Giants' and 'Streamlined Trolls' are probably under one of the variant categories. (Never played 'Tougher Fire Giants' but I read that it's crappy.)

@ALL:
Could you stop with the "broken mod" nonsense? There's nothing broken about Tactics. It's been running fine for years, far longer than BP, and has lived happily in a non-megainstall environment. I know.

It doesn't use file-patching as much as newer mods, but that's just a sign of age, not functionality. It is not obsolete. If anything, it should be modernized.

#12 ronin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:35 AM

It doesn't use file-patching as much as newer mods, but that's just a sign of age, not functionality. It is not obsolete. If anything, it should be modernized.


I nominate you to do that.

:devil:

ronin

#13 seanas

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 09:43 AM

@ALL:
Could you stop with the "broken mod" nonsense? There's nothing broken about Tactics. It's been running fine for years, far longer than BP, and has lived happily in a non-megainstall environment. I know.


it overwrite IDS files:
ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/action.ids~ THEN BEGIN 
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/action.ids~ ~override/action.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/trigger.ids~ THEN BEGIN 
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/trigger.ids~ ~override/trigger.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/spell.ids~ THEN BEGIN 
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/spell.ids~ ~override/spell.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/race.ids~ THEN BEGIN 
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/race.ids~ ~override/race.ids~
  END
so strictly speaking, it isn't broken, but it will break any of the BP family you've installed beforehand - and BP itself won't rectify this cos it will, naturally enough, detect that you've got TDD/ SoS/ etc installed and so skip the IDS patching - but not before it spews out an enormous long list of parsing errors during install.

yes, this behaviour is only an issue cos BP and it's components have been updated. so you are correct, yes: it's obsolete and it will break yr game, but it's not itself broken as such - but for all intents and purposes, it is, as installing it with BP or any of its components is going to cause, umm, issues.

Edited by seanas, 22 November 2006 - 09:45 AM.

"A simple test of the relative merits of science and religion is to compare lighting your house at night by prayer or electricity" - A. C. Grayling
"EFF files have saves, too." - CamDawg
|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||


#14 ronin

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 10:19 AM

So who wants to fix it? Leave out the stuff that is in BP, fix the copying issues and the .ids overwrites.

ronin

#15 Azazello

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Posted 22 November 2006 - 03:05 PM

seanas, you've been hitting the spiked eggnog too early -- again. We talked about this before. Put it down and wait until dinner tomorrow.

Tactics ain't broken, it don't break no other mods, and it ain't obsolete.

i. it works, full stop - thus not broken
ii. even if it stuffs added changes to FOUR IDS's, newer tweaks (and some newer versions of mods) put the changes back in - thus it don't break other mods -- unless someone installs it at the very bottom of their list :blink:
iii. it adds challenges that no other mod does - except BP. Funny how some of those challenges in BP ARE from Tactics...


It doesn't use file-patching as much as newer mods, but that's just a sign of age, not functionality. It is not obsolete. If anything, it should be modernized.

I nominate you to do that.

:devil:

ronin

There's no need. From OFFICIAL TP2:
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Always
// This block is run just before any component is installed. We need
// this to make sure that we can compile the BAF files. 
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
ALWAYS

  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/action.ids~ THEN BEGIN
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/action.ids~ ~override/action.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/trigger.ids~ THEN BEGIN
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/trigger.ids~ ~override/trigger.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/spell.ids~ THEN BEGIN
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/spell.ids~ ~override/spell.ids~
  END
  ACTION_IF NOT FILE_EXISTS ~override/race.ids~ THEN BEGIN
	COPY ~tactics2/ids/race.ids~ ~override/race.ids~
  END

END


This could be changed, or replaced, in the case where the IDS's are biffed or missing -- to this:
COPY_EXISTING ~action.ids~ ~override~
			   ~trigger.ids~ ~override~
			   ~spell.ids~ ~override~
			  ~race.ids~ ~override~

We could go the extra kilometer and put a check in for each component, look for some unique file that shows that BP is already installed, thus won't install the component. Do we want that?

Edited by Azazello, 22 November 2006 - 03:10 PM.


#16 dragonian

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 03:04 AM

but the problem with tactics is that it overrides files instead of expanding them

#17 seanas

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Posted 23 November 2006 - 03:24 AM

you could just comment out the IDS file section, it's no longer needed (Tactics and a number of the older mods - Kelsey and K/Z from memory, and possibly Sola - add these IDS files cos they were broken in various releases of TOB) - as all necessary IDS patching is handled by the Fixpack.

and yes: i'm aware that Tactics isn't actually broken, and that it works as intended if installed correctly. however, the IDS file overwrites - specifically, the SPELL.IDS overwrites - are an issue, as TDD (and BP, if TDD isn't installed) make major additions to SPELL.IDS. if TDD isn't installed, then yes, BP will patch the Tactics-added file without a problem; if TDD is installed, BP will skip the patching, and the overwritten file, without any of the TDD-added spells that BP uses heavily in its scripts - will be untouched. this causes parse errors (which freak out users) and scripts to fail to work properly (causing users to complain that BP is too easy or that creatures are standing around getting attacked when they should be reacting). neither outcome is one we should be happy with.

as for why most of Tactics is already included in BP - that's because when Horred first started the BP project, the intention was to mash up every mod into a one-click installer, and Tactics was one of the first mods he included in that installer - partly cos it's fun, and partly cos he wanted to get rid of the cheese. when we converted to weidu, and the dream of BP as a seamless installer was replaced by BP as a scripting mod, the Tactics components were left in, as these components a: all worked seamlessly with other parts of BP and the BP family; and b: weren't cheese - and neither statement is true with regards Tactics itself.

bringing Tactics into the modern age and de-cheesing it is actually a lot of work (another reason why those components weren't stripped from BP-weidu) but making it more-or-less fully compatible with BP is easy: it just requires the commenting out of the IDS overwrites. however, given the choice between explaining this to a new user (and having their eyes glaze over long before they've finished reading and thought 'stuff it, i'll install it and see what happens', and then have them come here and complain about parse errors or stationary opponents or other errors) and lying and saying it's broken: i choose lying. a better solution, obviously, would be a new version of Tactics - whether it's just an edited tp2 with the IDS overwrites removed or a complete re-write and de-cheese doesn't worry me. by far the worst solution is ppl installing Tactics with BP (or SCS, or Questpack, or the Fixpack, or any other mod that file-patches IDS files or Tactics-related script or creature files) and then coming here (or the relevant forum) and complaining that their game is broken cos our mods don't work - when it's the bloody file overwriting that's the cause.

and finally: NiGHTMARE suggested 18 months ago, on the completion of the weiduisation of the BP family, that we needed a community-wide mod resurrection project, to re-code Tactics, K/Z, Kelsey, and all the other mods i might refer to as 'first generation', to bring them into the file-patching era - it was a good idea then, and it remains a good idea now.

Edited by seanas, 23 November 2006 - 03:27 AM.

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|| this is radio seanas || BP Series v3 || seanas at work ||


#18 Azazello

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Posted 25 November 2006 - 12:30 PM

seanas:
I'm down with all those reasons; I'm not down with the lying. It's not needed.

Tactics does not overwrite them IDS files indiscriminately. I can think of 3 scenarios when it will, otherwise the files remain untouched. Anybody can see that from the code block above.

I'm not interested in seeing Tactics' content changed. Tactics' cheesyness is its charm. For or against it, we all play it knowing what it does.

If we want to prevent conflict with BP, I got a modified TP2 ready for Tactics. I just need the name of a file unique to a BP install. And can you update your post about what's is/isn't in BP, so I can be sure that those components don't get installed.

#19 Salk

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 12:10 PM

I'm not interested in seeing Tactics' content changed. Tactics' cheesyness is its charm. For or against it, we all play it knowing what it does.


Thanks Heaven, Horred has thought of Big Picture where challenge doesn't mean cheese...Tactics approach with ForceSpell and Enemies-on-steroids can have people "for" (?) or against. BP only "for"...

#20 -Guest-

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Posted 26 November 2006 - 01:38 PM

All this talk about cheese is making my head hurt. What exactly is "cheese" supposed to mean? Any direction you look, there's someone telling you such-and-such a mod "doesn't use cheese". It's a totally ambiguous statement. Tactics uses ForceSpells. So does BP. So does Improved Anvil. So did Bioware. So will pretty much every other mod whose author comes along and proclaims "okay guys, this time I've done it without cheese!" All to different degrees, of course, but nonetheless--it's a sad fact that the game's scripting language is for the most part insufficiently complex to enable us to create much of a challenge for our level 40 parties without bending the rules here and there.

As such, I'm curious as to whether this proclamation of non-cheesyness stems from actual experiences of the mod, or purely because that's what goes around the forum. (Can anyone name an encounter where Tactics has enemies pulling Meteor Swarms out their asses, while [any other mod] has them legally casting magic missile and achieves the same level of difficulty?) Improved Anvil is my favourite example of this bandwagon effect, because while there are hordes proclaiming it to trounce any other AI mod and provide an utterly cheese-free experience, closer examination reveals that the bulk of its scripting is in fact the default AI in a slightly different order. The impact comes not from a refreshing game experience delivering cunning AI without cheese, but rather from the author's proclamations in the vein of:

A new scripting system is devised and used in Improved Anvil. I call it polygonal scripting system, because each creature in this system uses a number of additional shared scripts "interactively" in addition to its own specific ones. It's an artificially intelligent and brand new scripting method. As a result, creatures can behave very very intelligently as if you are playing against a human mind.


This is, of course, total nonsense, but it conveys a positive impression of the author's goals, and raises the player's expectations. For what it's worth, I think Horred's AI is admirable and I greatly enjoyed working on scripts with him "back in the day", but the cheese denounciation is one which grates on my nerves, I'm afraid.

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