184 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

Can I ask then will the PC be required to kill/mutilate/assult any of the following characters if the crachter is in romance with Edwin:

Aerie
Cernd
Valygar
Mazzy
Elthan
Ellisime

The answer is 'no'. Neither one of these characters will go insane, be turned into frogs, trampled by the hordes of bizons, fed to the fire giants or chained to each other ( although I would like to see Aerie chained to Cernd and listen to them both ...)

Mazzy may leave the party if you let Edwin bait her and go too far in supporting him instead of slapping him down, but that's about it.

[Riona]

I personally think that Anomen would never hit a woman (except a fighting one in combat) but someone else's interpretation of him is no less valid.


...I prefer the CN one myself

Yes, but since technically the opinion that "matters" is one's own opinion (according to each person), each person considers their own opinion the one that is "most valid". One can influence someone's opinion, but only they can change it. It may sound arrogant, but because of my own experiences with the game, I will never consider the idea of Anomen being a "woman-beater" as valid; the fact is, to me, that just sounds like someone hates him enough to make up things about him that aren't even in the game.

I have to wonder if I've changed anyone's opinion about Elminster, here, or at least softened them up a little, at least.

PS: As the sea is not yellow, and as the grass is not purple, so Anomen--to me--will never be CN. Obviously, this is only what's in my mind and doesn't matter to anyone else.

[Riona]

@Domi: I don't understand why you bother. People should try to convince someone only when that someone is willing to change his/her mind if given sufficient arguments that his/her position is not founded. When you're served the argument: "It must be this way because I want it to be this way" it's time to back down because logic is no longer involved.

... But I do believe that the "Edwin wins agains Elminster" epilogue is far over the top. It's one thing to bend some rules, another to put aside the entire FR lore just to make your favorite look good.

1) Just because someone is adamant that they won't change their opinion doesn't mean they won't, at least later. One can't know how far a person will stick to their beliefs--as a person who loves a good debate, I am a firm believer in sharing ideas, although I agree that sometimes it is wise to back down.

2) "Edwin winning against Elminster"...well, as I said before, technically nothing is impossible, even in the case of Elminster. Personally, I haven't read the dialogue, so I cannot comment yet (anyone want to give me a link? ).

[Riona]

I was curious about these two particular things (epilogues replaced/why Elminster?) and when Riona started the discussion, I saw an opportunity to ask w/o it being misinterpreted.

Are you asking why do I bother?

Well, quite frankly it really does seem like there are a good many misunderstandings about Elminster in this thread, and as someone who can be considered well-informed (I've read most of the books involving Elminster, except for the Avatar and Shadow of Avatar books), and also someone who likes Elminster, I think it's only fair that I point out what I know about this character and how I feel he is being misinterpreted.

Yes, I know the BG cameos are not the best representations of him (although they are IMO much better than the ones of Drizzt), but don't I recommend judging him by those alone, nor do I recommend taking him too seriously (Ed Greenwood, his creator, pokes fun at Elminster himself).

If one wants to see El as smug, or pretentious, or self-righteous, or a tormenter of Jaheira, they can--but I will adamantly stand by my argument that he isn't any of those things, and I will do all I can to back my statements up with established facts.

[Riona]

As to Edwin, I definetly see Midnight/Mystra taking his magic away. It would be perfectly in accordance to her beliefs on the use of magic. While evil spellcasters are accepted, they are not allowed to get out of hand.

But usually, "getting out of hand" means "threatening the Weave". Even the new NG Mystra doesn't rule with an iron fist.

I seriously doubt Mystra would take away Edwin's magic just because he attacked Elminster, nor would Elminster even pention for Mystra to do it.

[Riona]

It bears repeating: It is the author's prerogative to write whatever he or she pleases, and do accept or reject criticism. In this case I have said more than once that I will do as I please with Elminster, and I will not repeat myself one more time.

I know, but quite frankly, I love talking about this. I am seriously enjoying this discussion.

Also, if everyone understands Elminster better (by knowing more about him) because of this, then I say that's a good thing.

[dorotea]

Ahem. Just to let everybody know - it was I who deleted Domi's last post , not Laufey. I warned I will delete anything 'personal' did not I? Please no hard feelings.

[Riona]

Jason - ... Don't you want people to like Kelsey?

...Elminster was the long time lover of Mystra, who gifted him those horribly inflated stats....In medical terms, elephantiasys

Actually, I would say the Kelsey Mod is a good example of the author making a likeable character without turning him into a "Mary Sue" (btw, I'm not saying that's happening here)--Jason Compton isn't a afraid to have Kelsey's chops busted ever now and then, and he allows the player to decide what to think about the character. He doesn't force his own opinion down the player's throat.

PS: As I said before, just about every official FR hero and villian has inflated stats (ability scores), not just Elminster. Take a look at the NPCs in Volo's Guide to the North--for some reason, almost every character has about 4 stats that are 16 or above.

[Laufey]

I know, but quite frankly, I love talking about this. I am seriously enjoying this discussion.

Also, if everyone understands Elminster better (by knowing more about him) because of this, then I say that's a good thing.

Oh, I wasn't bothered by anything you said, no problem. Polite disagreement doesn't bother me. Still, I'd rather not carry on the discussion, since it takes up time I'd rather spend elsewhere, so let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

[Riona]

Oh, I wasn't bothered by anything you said, no problem. Polite disagreement doesn't bother me. Still, I'd rather not carry on the discussion, since it takes up time I'd rather spend elsewhere, so let's just agree to disagree, shall we?

Alright, very well.

By the way, I'm still interested in seeing those epilogues you wrote, especially the one where "Edwin beats Elminster". If it's OK with you, could you post a link? Thanks in advance.

Domi: OK. I wasn't too sure what you meant, although I think stating my "purpose" was still a good thing.

[Laufey]

By the way, I'm still interested in seeing those epilogues you wrote, especially the one where "Edwin beats Elminster". If it's OK with you, could you post a link? Thanks in advance.

Well, I have posted *part* of the non-romance epilogue already of course. I think I'll keep the others under wraps for now though. But I can tell you that the non-romance one is the only one where Edwin actually personally is the agent of Elminster's embarrassment.

[Laufey]

Is PC an agent of Elminster's embarrassment in the romantic ones?

You will have to play the romance if you want to know more details. Besides, who knows...I may change some details before it is done. Or then again, I may not.

[Riona]

Well, I have posted *part* of the non-romance epilogue already of course. I think I'll keep the others under wraps for now though. But I can tell you that the non-romance one is the only one where Edwin actually personally is the agent of Elminster's embarrassment.

Is that part of the epilogue posted in this forum? I haven't seen it, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.

By the way, I want to say that if I see it, I promise not to "criticize" it out of hand, I'm just interested in seeing how it was done.

[Laufey]

Is that part of the epilogue posted in this forum? I haven't seen it, but perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.

By the way, I want to say that if I see it, I promise not to "criticize" it out of hand, I'm just interested in seeing how it was done.

It's the first post in the 'Edwin Romance is here' topic, and it's part of the epilogue for the non-romance ending.

[Lord E]

[quote name='Riona' date='Jul 25 2003, 10:16 PM'][/quote]
Yes, but since technically the opinion that "matters" is one's own opinion (according to each person), each person considers their own opinion the one that is "most valid". [QUOTE]

Certainly. But I think we always have to be aware that it is also true of any other person, and thus vicious arguments about such matters only cause harm.

>>>>>>>>>> It may sound arrogant, but because of my own experiences with the game, I will never consider the idea of Anomen being a "woman-beater" as valid; the fact is, to me, that just sounds like someone hates him enough to make up things about him that aren't even in the game.




How does commenting work anyway here?
---Anyway, I think anyone who writes fanfiction includes stuff that is not in the game (otherwise, what would even be the point?) And that depends on how you personally perceive a character. I can only relate you my experiences of Aerie. Now, I *hate, hate, hate* her. I have never hated any fictional character that much. There are people who think whenever I express this I am doing it in order to hurt their feelings. I am not. I just refuse to say that my feelings are less valid than the feelings of those who like Aerie. And in order to be fair, I think they have the same right, be it Anomen,or a character I truly love, such as Sarevok or Edwin.

>>>>>>>>>>I have to wonder if I've changed anyone's opinion about Elminster, here, or at least softened them up a little, at least.

You have convinced me that not all Elminster fans are rabid fanatics And should I get my hand on Elminster books, I am willing to give him a fair chance. Also, you are the first one to make some fair points why the epilogue wouldn't be so horrible (though I still interpret it differently).



>>>>>>>>PS: As the sea is not yellow, and as the grass is not purple, so Anomen--to me--will never be CN. Obviously, this is only what's in my mind and doesn't matter to anyone else.

So it goes. As long as we don't try to force our own ideas down others' throats, everything's fine.

[Kiki]

How does commenting work anyway here?

If you want to quote something, enclose it with tags that look like this:

[quote]I eagerly await your onslaught, Edwin[/quote]

As the sea is not yellow, and as the grass is not purple, so Anomen--to me--will never be CN.

Anomen makes a very convincing CN character--and his romancing of the PC is much more, er, assertive than his LG self. B)

[Laufey]

Anomen makes a very convincing CN character--and his romancing of the PC is much more, er, assertive than his LG self. B)

I like both Anomens myself, and in certain...ahem...ways I prefer the CN one.

[Riona]

How does commenting work anyway here?

I'll admit that I haven't totally figured it out, myself.

Anyway,  I think anyone who writes fanfiction includes stuff that is not in the game (otherwise, what would even be the point?) And that depends on how you personally perceive a character. I can only relate you my experiences of Aerie. Now, I *hate, hate, hate* her. I have never hated any fictional character that much. There are people who think whenever I express this I am doing it in order to hurt their feelings. I am not. I just refuse to say that my feelings are less valid than the feelings of those who like Aerie.

Well, I can say you won't get any complaints or rebuttals from me, because my feelings about Aerie as of this time are totally neutral (seriously). Honestly, I haven't used her much, but I will say I *lot* of other people feel the same way you do.

And in order to be fair, I think they have the same right, be it Anomen,or a character I truly love, such as Sarevok or Edwin.

Yes, you're right. Of course, I'll admit that when it comes to Anomen, I am biased towards him to a fault, and if someone says something about him that I feel is unfair, or a misinterpretation I will debate with them about it. I won't "force my opinions" down their throat (of course, if the truth hurts...oh well ), and I will be polite, but I will admit that I try to at least "neutralize" all the Anomen haters out there, or at least make them realize that not everyone hates him or his romance (it really does seem like some of them think no one else likes him, and I try to show them that isn't true).

You have convinced me that not all Elminster fans are rabid fanatics

I'm so happy to hear that!

And should I get my hand on Elminster books, I am willing to give him a fair chance.

Glad to hear that, too. Again, I can't promise that they will make you like Elminster, but if you read them you will most likely understand him better.

Also, you are the first one to make some fair points why the epilogue wouldn't be so horrible (though I still interpret it differently).

Fair enough!

So it goes. As long as we don't try to force our own ideas down others' throats, everything's fine.

That's just my biased towards LG Ano speaking--don't mind me. I said this in another thread, but part of the reason I don't force him to fail his test is simply because I know that would "hurt" him, and I like him too much to do it. Besides, you can't really have him make up for it later, so there would be no satisfying way for me to deal with that.