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#61 SConrad

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Posted 08 May 2007 - 06:19 PM

How do we know that Gaider and his point of view actually represents "Developer Intent"? I mean no disrespect, but on who's auhority did/does he speak? We see these developing team credits, and he is in many instances not prominently displayed - so I have to ask, who has given him the go-ahead to speak on the others' behalf?

If not... then can we label his ideas and views as "Developer Intent"?

I doubt that you or anyone can.

Exactly my point. :)

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#62 grogerson

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 05:56 AM

As a (mostly) "lurker" here, I saw this and a connection popped into my mind.

<Start Rant>
Lou Gehrig (sp?) wasn't a great baseball player, but he was above average. What really made him was his consistancy - he was always there. Only recently was the "Iron Man" of baseball's record of continuous games played broken.

Give DG credit for the same thing. He may not be the greatest out there, but he was involved in the early IE community when noone else was. That makes him above average. And he had a record of being there when noone else was.

Creativity aside, his presence is what earned him his reputation. Like it or not. And that reputation can be really annoying, especially when others constantly refer to him. But things have changed a lot since then, and so has the community.

Sounds like you let it get under your skin. If that's the case, please stop looking at his shadow, and start looking at your own. You'll be able to do better, and who knows? Maybe yours will grow longer than his, maybe you'll get a better reputation. Though that's for others to decide, isn't it?
<End Rant>

Do with the work you have to do, do it your best, and the rest will take care of itself. :new_thumbs:

#63 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 07:29 AM

@Domi: remember Aarin Gend, and the way he kept folding his arms?


Er... I have no idea who that is :)

#64 Kulyok

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 08:04 AM

What, you've heard of Aribeth the Boring, but not of female PC's romance interest? Aarin Gend is available for romance in NWN - original campaign. (I managed to play it once, after all).

#65 -Domi_Ash-

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 08:37 AM

Well, I managed to play the OC to the point of meeting Aribeth before my desire to play NWN1 was eroded away by the severe boredom and the inability to cope with having to play solo and a pseudo-NPC you had to pay to be your perfectly useless and silent ally.

The scene with Carth though was very well made. You're borded, nothing can be done for that, then he comments, reclines back and folds his arms. I was impressed by the first and only time by the cinematics.

#66 Kellen

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 08:40 AM

I have to agree. I never make it far in NWN. I've yet to once save the city.
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#67 GeN1e

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 08:53 AM

BTW, what's actually the point of this topic? A phrase "DG isn't as great as you think" can't make DG's worshippers to turn away from him. And very few poeple here are agree with SC, others are either hostile or neutral (or aren't about to say what position they are closer to).

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#68 -Guest-

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 09:42 AM

How do we know that Gaider and his point of view actually represents "Developer Intent"?

I think one thing we can bear in mind is that clearly he's not going to remember every detail of a game he worked on seven years ago. This occurred to me mostly after the Togerias alignment query, which he clearly just got wrong.

#69 jcompton

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:29 AM

BTW, what's actually the point of this topic? A phrase "DG isn't as great as you think" can't make DG's worshippers to turn away from him. And very few poeple here are agree with SC, others are either hostile or neutral (or aren't about to say what position they are closer to).


Maybe it's a Cronbad sociological study.

You know, chart the number of people who:

- React with outrage
- Open and/or close their response with a variation of "This is all I have to say about this"
- See how many people continue to talk despite having said that
etc.

#70 Kulyok

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:45 AM

Edited out as per global moderator's request.

Edited by Kulyok, 09 May 2007 - 09:55 PM.


#71 -Guest-

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 11:59 AM

I think it's more like: "Well, we have nude Oblivion screenshots and word games, what else can we talk about? Oh! I know! David Gaider!"


In your favour, prudes and pettiness were addressed elsewhere iirc.

#72 cmorgan

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Posted 09 May 2007 - 02:30 PM

/Edit:
Completely irrelevant and self-serving commentary deleted. I thought there was a "delete your own reply" button somewhere, but I can't find it. Sorry. Carry on.

Edited by cmorgan, 09 May 2007 - 02:32 PM.


#73 MajorTomSawyer

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:04 AM

BTW, what's actually the point of this topic? A phrase "DG isn't as great as you think" can't make DG's worshippers to turn away from him. And very few poeple here are agree with SC, others are either hostile or neutral (or aren't about to say what position they are closer to).


Maybe it's a Cronbad sociological study.

You know, chart the number of people who:

- React with outrage
- Open and/or close their response with a variation of "This is all I have to say about this"
- See how many people continue to talk despite having said that
etc.


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#74 Seifer

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:38 AM

I've had a look at this commentary but haven't really had time to contribute until now. It's a pity to see that its descended into something less then civilzed so I'd just want to point out to everyone that it's easy to find offence in strong personal opinions espcially when you disagree with them.

For my own humble contribution, one of the words that I've seen bandied here is consistency, which I think is rather important here.

I think one thing we can bear in mind is that clearly he's not going to remember every detail of a game he worked on seven years ago. This occurred to me mostly after the Togerias alignment query, which he clearly just got wrong.


Let's also take a look at some of the offending material.
http://www.gamejag.n...h...pic&t=65066 Posted: Nov 10, 2000 - 12:48 AM
http://www.gamejag.n...h...ic&t=66591- Posted: Sep 26, 2001 - 12:24 AM
http://www.gamejag.n...h...pic&t=65660 Posted: Apr 13, 2001 - 01:24 AM
http://www.gamejag.n...h...pic&t=65112 Posted: Dec 11, 2000 - 12:24 AM
http://www.gamejag.n...h...pic&t=66793 Posted: Nov 11, 2001 - 02:18 AM

And not to mention that this last one comes (posted 5th May) with a disclaimer to it

PREFACE:

Yes, I do work for Bioware.

No, this is not official.

This is a piece of fiction I wrote for a few fans (read: fanatics) who inspired me with their adoration of the character, Carth. It?s melodramatic and mushy and overall I?m very pleased with how it?s turned out. I hope they like it.

Note from review team: We wrote to Mr. Gaider personally and got his approval to post this here on his behalf. Thank you very much, David, for allowing us to host this! Great job on Kotor!!


With one exception, "most of the offensive material" linked too was written ages ago, I've not attempted to locate anymore nor have I seen any deification of DG himself. I think he deserves credit for being accessible to those interested in modding and making his time available to those who are interested in his contributions towards their favourite games, which I can imagine is fair amount.

Is it fair to find fault with something that was written so long ago? Old TBG tools are now judged as inferior as new and more relative tools have been created. With the advent of time since a lot of David's core BG stuff has been written, I'm left to wonder if any of the accusations levelled against him now are influenced by the fact that we've had an awful lot of community material. What sort of factors are affecting the qualitative benchmark being used here?

To touch on Jason's point somewhat, are two seperate discussions evolving here? I think so. I've seen NO evidence to suggest any sort of DG hero worship beyond subjective commentary / conjecture.

And Sebastian, check your PM stash when you've got a second.

Cheers,
Seif

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Speaking of modding, I listened to IER 3 yesterday, so you can have another quote for your signature: how come you sound so damn cool, as well as look it? It's unfair. Seriously.


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#75 SConrad

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 06:13 PM

I don't have time to properly respond to this thread, but I'll single out something:

Let's also take a look at some of the offending material.
[...]
With one exception, "most of the offensive material" linked too was written ages ago

Please, Steven, read what I've posted. "Offending material?" Hardly. "Bad material?" No, not really even that.

I haven't said he's awful and horrible and offensive. I've said he's mediocre, and I'll stand by that. There's a large difference.

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#76 -Hydrogen-

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Posted 31 May 2007 - 07:30 AM

I agree with the OP. Certain things must change.

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